Published: Oct. 9, 2023, 8 a.m.

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Where Do Feelings Come From?

Getting Unstuck from Apathy

Ancient Stoic Philosophers--and More!

Ask David Questions for Today

Bystad: Why is it so helpful to write down your negative thoughts when you\\u2019re upset?

Anyinio: Do we have to have a thought every time we have an emotion? What if I see a car coming fast and about to hit me? Would I have to have a fast automatic thought?

Raghav: How can I get unstuck from apathy?

Anita: What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for emotional distress as well as escape from emotional distress?

Louisa: Can you tell us some more about the ancient and modern Stoic philosophers who influenced the development of CBT and TEM-CBT?

Answers to today\\u2019s questions. The following answers were written before the podcast. The information on the podcast may be quite different in some cases, and will typically provide much more information than the brief answers below. David

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Bystad asks: Why is it so helpful to write down your negative thoughts when you\\u2019re upset?

Dear David!

I have practiced the paradoxical approach where I just write down my thougts / worries without challenging them.

I think I learned that approach from your great book \\xabWhen Panic Attacks\\xbb.

This is something that really works for me, especially for worries. It is almost like I \\xabget the worries out of my head\\xbb.

Can you talk about this approach in your lovely podcast, why is it so effective for some people??

Best regards from Martin

David\\u2019s reply

Great question. Will address it the next time we record an Ask David podcast!

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Anyinio asks: Do you ALWAYS have a thought before you can experience an emotion / feeling?

David\\u2019s response

The word \\u201cthought\\u201d is just a form of shorthand for perception. Perception can take many forms. When you see a car about to hit you, you already HAVE a negative and alarming thought!

If you like, you can check out the railroad track story in my Feeling Good Handbook. It is a story about a man who became euphoric after his car was hit by a train going 60 MPH because of his thoughts about it!

When a deer spots a pack of howling wolves, it runs in terror. It does not have a \\u201cthought\\u201d in English, but it DOES have the perception of being in imminent danger, and it DOES experience intense, sudden fear. However, the deer did NOT feel fear / anxiety until s/he SAW and correctly interpreted the pack of wolves.

Thanks, best, david

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Raghav asks: How can I get unstuck from apathy?

Hi Dr. Burns,

I hope you\\u2019re doing well and thank you so much for all of your incredible work! It has really helped me pull myself out of some of the deepest depressions and anxieties I\\u2019ve had.

I wanted to ask for your help with a problem I\\u2019ve been facing recently:

I seem to get stuck in depressive cycles at times where I don\\u2019t want to do a DML even though I know it will make me feel better. When I start doing the positive reframing, it helps melt away this resistance, but I still mope around for a while before I start the positive reframing. My thoughts during this time are generally \\u201cThere\\u2019s no point to getting better,\\u201d \\u201cDoing a DML is like forcing myself to cheer up,\\u201d \\u201cI should care about getting better more than I do right now,\\u201d and \\u201cThere\\u2019s no meaning to life.\\u201d How would you recommend I go about dealing with this apathetic state?

I would greatly appreciate any help in this matter!

Thanks,

Raghav

David\\u2019s reply:

You could perhaps list:

1. 1. All the really GOOD reasons NOT to do a DML.
   2. What the procrastination / avoidance shows about you and your core values that positive and awesome.
   3. How the avoidance helps you.

Something along those lines.

I might make this an Ask David question if that\\u2019s okay with you. Could use your first name only, or a fake name if you prefer.

Thanks! Good question, as so many can relate to it!

Best, david

Raghav\\u2019s response to David

Here\\u2019s the answers I came up with:

Good Reasons NOT to do a DML

1. Doing a DML might be difficult and take a long time.
2. I might not be able to answer some of my thoughts.
3. Even if I do a DML, I might not be able to change my mood.
4. Even if I change my mood, there\\u2019s no point in being happy.
5. There\\u2019s no sense of meaning in doing a DML.
6. It feels inauthentic to try to change my mood.
7. Even if I do a DML now, I will return to this state again.
8. Doing a DML is like forcing myself to cheer up and I don\\u2019t want to be forced to do anything.
9. I want to be able to get better without doing a DML.
10. I might have to confront really negative and distressing thoughts.

Core Values it shows about me

1. I care about doing things successfully \\u2014 I don\\u2019t want to half-ass it.
2. I want to put my best foot forward when doing tasks \\u2014 i.e. not do them when I\\u2019m tired.
3. I want to be self-reliant and be able to solve all my problems myself.
4. I care about being able to change my mood.
5. I care about having meaning in life.
6. I care about being authentic to my emotional states \\u2014 I can honor my apathetic/bored side.
7. I can sit with my sadness and apathy rather than trying to escape it.
8. I care about having lasting solutions rather than short-term fixes.
9. I\\u2019m my own man \\u2014 I\\u2019m not going to be forced to do something I don\\u2019t want to do.
10. I care about being able to deal with my emotional problems without \\u201ccrutches.\\u201d

How the Avoidance Helps Me

1. It means that I don\\u2019t have to do the hard work of doing a DML.
2. I don\\u2019t have to engage in the ups and downs of life if I\\u2019m apathetic/avoidant.
3. I can keep engaging in avoidance and distracting myself.
4. It feels like there are no consequences to my actions so I feel more free.
5. I don\\u2019t have to do the hard work required to build meaning into my life.
6. I can fully engage and honor my apathy and boredom.
7. I\\u2019ll push myself to search for lasting solutions to my problems.
8. It pushes me to improve my mental capabilities of solving my problems.
9. It helps me avoid the pain and anguish of actually addressing really negative thoughts.
10. It pushes me to find more interesting things to fill my life with.

Raghav

David\\u2019s reply

Great work, thanks! So now my question is this: Given all these positives, it is not clear to me why you\\u2019d want to do a DML. What\\u2019s your thinking about this?

Best, david

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\\xa0Anita asks about the necessary and sufficient conditions for emotional distress as well as escape from emotional distress?

Dear David

While revisiting Feeling Great I was thinking further about the interplay of necessary and sufficient conditions that are correlated to emotional distress.

Necessary condition: You must have a negative thought

Sufficient condition: You must believe in the negative thought

I was thinking of another sufficient condition that may account for the behavioural component of emotional distress:

Sufficient condition: You must act in way that reinforces your negative thought.

For me this additional sufficient condition unlocks another philosophical underpinning why exposure is a key to overcoming anxiety.

For example, if I have a negative thought I\\u2019m going to screw up in a presentation and then I believe it 100%. I can still summon up the courage to go ahead and do the presentation. Thus, I\\u2019m behaving in a way that doesn\\u2019t fulfil the second sufficient condition, and therefore another way to reduce emotional distress. More often than not, the presentation is not as calamitous as I anticipated anyways.

Thanks for reading.

Warm Regards

Anita

David\\u2019s reply

Hi Anita,

Great question, thanks. I greatly appreciate folks who think more deeply about these things.

Exposure is a desirable tool in the treatment of anxiety, for sure, but if you point is \\u201cnecessary and sufficient\\u201d for emotional distress, then the action thing is an unnecessary and erroneous, to my way of thinking, add-on. For example, many people who are severely depressed and believe themselves to be worthless do very little, and others do a great deal, but both feel the same severity of distress.

Could we use this for an Ask David, with or without your first name? If so, we could also discuss the \\u201cnecessary and sufficient\\u201d for emotional change. Here the sufficient condition is that you no longer believe\\xa0 the negative thought, or your belief has gone down significantly.

You can respond, too, if you like to my comments.

Warmly, david

Anita\\u2019s Response to David

Thanks David, sure I\\u2019d be pleased if you find any of what I wrote useful for your listeners. Feel free to use my first name. I\\u2019m also curious to know more about the depth of belief in a negative thought as a sufficient condition for emotional distress. Is there a particular intensity or tipping point that might lead to the emotional distress?

David\\u2019s Response: The greater you belief in a negative thought, the greater the emotional impact. There\\u2019s no \\u201ctipping point.\\u201d

I loved the premise of your book: \\u201cWhen you change the way you think, you can change the way you feel\\u201d It got me pondering about the possibility other things such as some behaviours in addition to thoughts that could be associated with emotional distress.

David\\u2019s Response: Your own or someone else\\u2019s behaviour won\\u2019t have any effect on you until you have a thought, or interpretation, of what\\u2019s happening. This is the basic premise of CBT, going back 3500 years or more.

An example I\\u2019m thinking of is workplace procrastination. Let\\u2019s say I have been given two weeks to tackle a laborious project. I might initially have thoughts there is plenty of time and I can procrastinate for the first week doing things I find more satisfying at work.

Towards the end of the second week, panic sets in as I rush through the project so I can still meet the deadline.

After the event, I start ruminating and believing self-critical thoughts such as \\u201cI shouldn\\u2019t have been so lazy\\u201d and \\u201cI\\u2019m never able to handle projects well.\\u201d

Is it to say, the behaviours before the event has little to no bearing on the negative thoughts or belief after the event? And if so why is it really the case that the negative thinking comes into play after the event happens?

David\\u2019s Response: Negative thinking can happen before, during, or after an event.

I really have gained much from many of your books. I\\u2019m inquiring to deepen and refine my own thought processes.

Thankyou

Warm Regards

Anita

David\\u2019s Response

Thanks so much for you kind and thoughtful comments.

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Louisa asks: I\\u2019d like learn more about the ancient and modern Stoic philosophers who influenced the development of CBT and TEM-CBT.

Hello Rhonda and David,

I am a Belgium based listener thoroughly enjoying the podcast and sharing it far and wide! I love the TEAM CBT structured approach.

I find in particular that many of the methods are (relatively) easy to remember and administering self-help feels much easier than I ever imagined.

Well-done, David!

I wonder if David could talk one time about the different influences various figures in the development of CBT right from its inception with (it seems to me) the Roman Stoics until this century.

Some names that come to mind are Seneca, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, to Albert Ellis, Aaron Beck & William Glasser (these last three all since passed away.)

Are they any particular names that stick out as having been particularly useful in the development of TEAM CBT and why or how? Do the Roman Stoics still have anything to offer us?

Thanks for the great show!

Louisa

David\\u2019s Response

Hi Louisa,

Thanks, will include in the list of questions for the next Ask David, depending on time constraints.\\xa0 Best, david

PS Albert Ellis documents much of the history in his book, Reason and Emotion in Psychotherapy. I believe that Karen Horney, the feminist psychiatrist of the first part of the 20 th century, discuss lots of the current ideas as well, especial the \\u201cneed\\u201d for love, success, etc. and the idea that we have an \\u201cideal\\u201d self and a \\u201creal\\u201d self. We get upset when we realize that the two don\\u2019t match!

David and Rhonda are grateful that Matt can join us often on the podcast.

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