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A listener named Benjamin asks about procrastination. He wrote:

\\u201cThe live therapy with Marilyn was very interesting - like other listeners, I was impressed by her character and strength.

\\u201cTowards the end of this most recent podcast, you were musing on what topics to cover in future podcasts. I would love to hear about how you treat people suffering from chronic laziness ("Do Nothingism"). In particular, there seems to be a strong potential of a Catch-22 with Process Resistance: The patient cannot find the motivation to do anything, yet they have to carry out the process (do the homework) to improve.

\\u201cEven worse, in "Feeling Good", you categorize "Do Nothingism" into around 10 different categories, and suggest a different approach for each one. What should a lazy person do, who identifies with multiple categories, but is already starting to feel overwhelmed at the prospect of doing one of those activities, let alone five of them?

\\u201cI would love to hear David\'s thoughts on this!\\u201d

David and Fabrice begin by thanking Benjamin, and David emphasizes how helpful and inspiring it is to receive specific questions like this, which makes it easy to create a (hopefully) informative and interesting podcast.

David says that his thinking about the treatment of procrastination has changed greatly since he wrote Feeling Good. One big change is that he no longer tries to \\u201chelp\\u201d individuals who procrastinate, since this will cause them to continue to procrastinate, and the failure will now be the failure of the therapist, who\\u2019s \\u201chelping\\u201d wasn\\u2019t good enough.

Instead, David outlines a multi-step approach, based on someone who has ten years of unfiled papers that have piled up in his office, so that by now 15 feet of desk space is completely covered by piles of papers roughly one foot high. Fabrice plays the role of the resistant patient, and David plays the role of the therapist.

The steps include:

Paradoxical Agenda Setting: David asks, \\u201cThe procrastination seems to be working for you. Why would you want to change? Let\\u2019s make a list of all the benefits of procrastination, and all the reasons NOT to change.\\u201d David emphasizes that the patient has to convince the therapist that this is something he really does want to change. It\\u2019s NOT the therapist\\u2019s role to help or to convince the patient to change!

Miracle Cure Question: What kind of help would you like in today\\u2019s session? Most patients say they need help with motivation. David declines to offer this, explaining that it isn\\u2019t on the therapeutic menu today\\u2014only the \\u201cBlue Plate Special!\\u201d The patient must agree to begin working on the filing in spite of having no motivation.

David also explains the underlying concept behind this strategy: most procrastinators are waiting for motivation, but that never works. You\\u2019ll be waiting forever, because you\\u2019re NEVER going to feel like doing all that filing! You aren\\u2019t entitled to motivation!

Productive individuals know that action comes first, and motivation comes second.

Specificity: What time would you like my help in overcoming your procrastination? The patient\\u2019s requests for help yesterday or tomorrow are declined by the therapist, so they settle on 6 PM today.

Little Steps for Big Feats: Let\\u2019s list the first five things you would need to do tonight at 6 PM, making sure that every step can be completed in 15 to 30 seconds. They list these steps:

1. Walk into my office
2. Choose one pile to start working on
3. Pick up the top piece of paper on the pile
4. Put it into a blank manila file folder
5. Label the file folder

Let\\u2019s Be Specific: David asks if Fabrice needs help with Step 1? Step 2? Etc. Fabrice finally admits he can do these five steps.

Five Minute Rule: David asks if Fabrice will agree to do these five steps between 6 PM and 6:05 PM, and if he will agree to work on his filing for ONLY those five minutes. At the end of the five minutes he has completed 100% of the assignment. The rationale is that if Fabrice tries to do it all, he\\u2019ll get so overwhelmed that he won\\u2019t do anything. But if he agrees to ONLY five minutes, that will be do-able. And if he surprises himself, and gets motivated to do more, he can, be he only gets credit for the first five minutes.

Problem \\u2013 Solution List: David asks Fabrice to put a line down the middle of a piece of paper, from top to bottom, and list all the problems that will get in the way at 6 PM, and then to list convincing solutions to each problem in the right-hand column. Fabrice lists two problems: 1. I won\\u2019t feel like it. And 2. Traffic might be heavy, so I might not get home by 6 PM.

\\u201cI Stubbornly Refused\\u201d Technique: David asks Fabrice to agree to an unusual phone call at 6:05 PM!

TIC \\u2013 TOC Technique: David plays the role of Fabrice\\u2019s \\u201cTask-Interfering Cognitions\\u201d (TICS) that will tempt him to procrastinate, and asks Fabrice to play the role of the \\u201cTask-Oriented Cognitions\\u201d (TOCS) he can use to combat the TOCs. The TICS include the familiar ones such as:

1. Five minutes won\\u2019t help, the job is overwhelming.
2. Even if I get started, I\\u2019ll just relapse, so there will never be a permanent solution.
3. It\\u2019s not such a big problem, I don\\u2019t need to do my filing now.
4. I can watch Game of Thrones on TV instead. That will be more fun.
5. It will be too anxiety provoking to get started.
6. It\\u2019s too late to get started anyway.
7. Tomorrow will be a better day.

David confesses the problem is one that he actually had, and describes how he solved it, using this exact approach!