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b'Inspired by two recent descriptions of a desire to expand learning options, one penned by a young student to Rav Moshe Tzuriel,andthe other a description of an exciting Corona era"return to the classroom " by 77 year old David Denby,Rabbi Kivelevitz lodges a complaint that the standard Yeshivos with their high powered exciting learning are not making the product available to senior citizens and discriminating against Sefardi bochurim.Please find below listener\'s responses(in italics) and Rabbi Kivelevitz\'s answers-you can be in this space as well!That was a surprisingly cynical discussion on yeshivos. Didn\'t seem to have a clear end game.Ireally have an issue with the way Ner Israel was run-and was a personal victim-it is hard not to be bitter.Work that I have had in recent yearsgivesme an insight into how they still operate.My main point was to make this great product truly available to allI would ask the following: Why is it that the Rav Chaim/Brisker method of learning, in only 100 years, has taken over as the seemingly sole representative style of learning gemara? Did yeshivos even exist before Cheftza and Gavra? Maybe what is needed is a restoration of the original methods of learning, rather than trying to shoehorn everyone into pilpul.Again-a good topic of discussion-Rav Zevin\'s Ishim Vishitos andShagar\'s book-Ubitoroso yehegeh-along with Marc Shapiro\'s book on Rav YY Weinberg are good places to gain perspective on how effective and necessary the revolution was.I think there already has been more change than you think-and the Brisker method has undergone a lot of dilutionAs to why pilpul and not Sefardi styleBekius or Sugya oriented Chasidic approach-One can read the material collected by Rav Simcha Asaf in Toldos HaChinuch BiYisroelin the sections that deal with the Maharal\'s call for change in instructionand read Rav YisroelSalanter\'s defense and passionate appeal for continuingand strengthening pilpulistic approaches that are blatantly untrue as a means of filtering young ego into ahavas haTorah-with corrections to be applied later.See in this regardIsrael Salanter, Text, Structure, Idea:The Ethics and Theology of an Early Psychologist of the Unconscious-by Hillel GoldbergYour most recent Rischa episode left me surprised. The only yeshiva I\\u2019ve ever learn at is Ohr Somayach Monsey (and its present gilgul). There have always been middle-aged and more elderly people learning in shiurim with bochurim, often with bochurim bchevrusa. I personally have a chevrusa with a nearly-70 yr old retired BT with no yeshiva experience prior to beginning learning full time five years ago. A friend of mine learned for years with a doctor, now in his eighties, who became observant and came to the yeshiva in his sixties. At one point, my shiur\\u2019s median age was probably around sixty. R\\u2019Bechhofer\\u2019s mechutan has been learning b\\u2019chevrusa with a recently-married friend of mine for around two years. Off the top of my head, I can think of eight people of this demographic ( approximately out of a total of 100 affiliated with the yeshiva, Kollel, and semicha program), around half of whom are FFB, who have been learning on campus.You are blessed indeed to have been part of such an institution-and they are to be commended-It is definitelynot the norm,and many of the elite schools boast incredible magideishiur-who should have those older fellows sitting in the front rowI guess a BT yeshiva is an exception to this norm. I always assumed I\\u2019d be able to return to learning in a yeshiva/Kollel setting upon retirement. Is this not the case?No one will kick you out of the building-as the situation stands now=efforts will not be made to integrate you into the youthful student body-and if the dismissive arrogance towards the older generationthat seems to be the standard stock of millenials continues to fester-don\'t expect to swim right away unless you knock them off their socksOutside of a BT yeshiva, what learning options are for the retired? Just chevrusas or specialized kolelim for them?That\'s why we did the Show-to start a grass roots movement and outcry against this ageismI am confused about the specifics of the problem. Is the lack of elderly in yeshivos simply because it\\u2019s culturally not what is done in yeshivish circles (why?),The point of the experience is to mold them for the future-create a type of Rebbe or Rosh KollelandBaalei Batim who will support the cause-not just for Ahavas HaTorah and there tobe aShaar Mitzuyin in HalachaRYGB gave you his theory on air..I think everyone fears the x-factor...so the yeshivos don\\u2019t try to attract them and they consequently feel unwelcome and refrain from participating? Or are they actively being excluded from yeshivos?I\'m not sure if the two ways you present them are that differentAs in,they are deliberately excluded after inquiring about joining shiur.I don\'t have hard data-yet I would bet that the answer is yes-maybe couched with a modicum of respect and suggestions for other less intense and fruitful options See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. This podcast has been graciously sponsored by JewishPodcasts.fm. 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