Speaker 1: (00:00) We're living in a culture today that's becoming increasingly hostile to the Christian faith had. Do we deal with that? How do we have influence? We'll stay tuned today. We're going to answer that with my special guests, Dennis peacock. How do I bring my faith to work? How do I tap into the power of God in my work life? Paul, why am I going through this adversity is God mad at me? I'm also a woman and I've been helping leaders like you answer these questions and more for over 30 years. That's what this podcast is all about. Let's learn and grow together. Welcome to TGIM. Today. God is first. Well, welcome through our podcast this week. I'm so delighted to have a very, Speaker 2: (00:40) a good friend that I've known quite a while, Dennis peacock out of California and Dennis is with an organization called go strategic and he has a heart to equip leaders just like myself and he's been doing it on the West coast. I've been doing it on the East coast and we've been in a lot of conferences over those many years, and he's had a lot of his Joseph process as well. He fought a major disease in his life that almost killed him. And, uh, God has restored him and get him, given him a second wind like myself. And so, Dennis is great to have you today, uh, good to have you on podcast. See you, Oz. And it's always good to be with a fellow troublemaker. That's right. And so, you know, you've written several books and you've, um, our paths are very similar. And I, I remember the very first time I met you, Dennis, was at a conference you had and my first introduction to you was you walking down the center aisle dressed up as Braveheart. You remember that? Yeah. And, um, but, uh, I've always appreciated your, uh, statesmanship. And then I've been saying to people for the last several years, I said, what has happened to the statesmen in our country and why don't we have them, uh, how did politics get to the place that it's gone to? And so, um, you know, when you look at where our nation is today, uh, what's your greatest concern? What are you seeing? Speaker 2: (02:18) Great question. Um, I always, if I'm thinking clearly begin with the church, uh, because of the role that God has for the church as the ekklesia, which again is a Greek word. [inaudible] unfortunately, far too many Christians have any understanding of what Ecosia of the Greek word really means or as a body politic what it was. But when Jesus used that word that he built his ekklesia and he didn't say build a synagogue [inaudible] that would have been as offensive to the Jews Speaker 3: (02:59) as drink my blood and eat my flesh. Speaker 3: (03:02) And it wasn't a spiritual term at that time, right? It was the ekklesia was the name for the ruling political bodies in the Greek city States, which my background in political theory at Berkeley, I knew what ekklesia was and had studied ekklesia management. They're in the pre Hill, any Greeks. And when I discovered that echo SIA was what we translate church. Mmm. As in many cases, I shook my head and said, how in God's name did we get to where we are now? Because an was SIA is a governing spiritually governing body, very much like a legislature. So when we talk about what's the biggest problem in society, the biggest problem in society is that the instrument God had chosen two manage through Oh his spirit managing through the church and managing through the scripture as in applying biblical principles and biblical law to the structure of society. Speaker 3: (04:14) If the church does not understand it's own identity, then that is what produces what we see going on in the secularization of Western civilization. We see nations for which Christ died as his inheritance. Some too, we see them being managed with not only no protest, no real direction from the body of Christ as to how God wants to manage culture and manage society. So that's a long answer, but an important journey that I think the simplest way I've said this over the years is when the church as a cold, the world gets cancer, uh, whatever, whatever, uh, deleterious, whatever confusion, whatever lack of focus we bring to surrounding society multiplies its manifestation in deep corruption. And again, uh, you know, with the academic background that I had, uh, know the world, especially in the macro economic side. I've worked as an economist for a number of years. The place that that really shows up and is going to show up even far more than it is now is in the lack of sustainability, uh, in the economic world. Yeah, that's the long answer. But the biggest problem with the world is the church and our lack of understanding or lack of training, our lack of equipping for relevant Speaker 2: (05:58) in the management of society. You know, that's a, you and I have a good friend, Peter Wagner, that we walked together for years. And when Peter wrote his book about the church in the workplace, I know you and I both had input in his life about that book and, but he was the first one who coined the, the term the nuclear church and the extended church. And the fact that the nuclear church had it's own rule book and the extended church had its rule book. But unfortunately the nuclear church has really fell behind in really understanding the role they played to equip men and women to be cultural shapers. Uh, rather than, uh, being so, uh, internal in the programs inside that church and some of the paradigms that measure success in a local church versus what God calls him to do. And that is to equip the saints for the work of ministry. And that one thing alone has had a huge consequence on society. Speaker 3: (07:04) Well, you and I would, again, Speaker 3: (07:06) I remember us meeting in about the middle of the nineties, uh, in Atlanta, several conferences. They're together in that place. And I know many of us, we're convinced that the marketplace ministry was going to be used of God to jolt and influence and affect and infect, uh, you know, what the rest of the church was doing. You and I, I don't have not talked about this in a while, but it did not develop it. It didn't go as far as I had hoped and I had thought that it would go that, uh, because when you get into studying, you know, business is certainly from a biblical economic foundation because you know, God loves work and work is worship and economics is a cumulative management of the labor of humanity. Uh, and what that labor is designed to produce. And we'd hoped that that would have a lot more effect than it has. Speaker 3: (08:15) What I come to believe now, and again, it's related to your question, what most concerns me is I don't believe the church changes unless it's in great danger. And I think the danger there is an all out increasingly direct on slot and attack against freedom of religion and faith. And I think that is what the primary antidote that God is going to use is snatching away more and more political freedom and spiritual freedom from the church so that the church has no other option, uh, they into re-engineer the way that it relates to society. And that's what I think we're, we're seeing now it's going to get worse. And in some ways, the worse it gets, the closer we are to the church beginning to really discover the nature of the kingdom of God and the way in which God wants that kingdom to influence all dimensions of culture. Speaker 2: (09:22) Yeah. Yeah. That's so true in, in many ways it seems like we're in a reprieve for these last three years. Yeah. We've been given back the Christian voice in this nation and by the grace of God that we never anticipated that this administration would serve that role in what has taken place. And so, gosh, just think if, uh, the liberalization had taken place, they would have, the slide had already started and it would have just continued further and further. And so, you know, I pray that God allows us to, to reshape some things while we have the opportunity and to really be used of God to restore some of those foundations, but is no, no doubt that we have to have a heart change in the nation and revival in the heart of people to really see change. And so, you know, my prayer is that that will happen. And as a result we'll see leaders raised up in the seventh Sears and other places that can, can be true statesman. You know, it's unfortunate our political system has gotten to the place it has. It's very saddening. Speaker 3: (10:43) Well, anybody that has an opinion that God is some dour off steer, uh, fuddy duddy is not paid much attention to the irony and the humor of God that God would use Donald Trump to be into what Donald Trump has been being and doing. I just find hilariously funny. He is so objectionable on so many human character levels. And yet as you pointed out, uh, you know, in terms of just straight direct activity designed to strengthen the faith based community in this country, he's probably the most outstanding guy we've had since Reagan and in some ways even much more than president Reagan and that he used a personality like Trump to do it. I just find hilarious, uh, on one level and I, I encourage people who asked me about that irony. Uh, you know, my comment is, look, don't look for Trump to be the virtuous man that you would think God would a, he's a wrecking ball and, uh, enjoy the ride. Speaker 2: (11:58) Well, last week I published an article on how God often uses leaders with co with flawed character. And, uh, I said, you know, if you look at Jacob, there's a flawed character, right? There are control and manipulation. If you look at David a manipulator and, and really a murder and adulterer harem, if you look at, you know, Paul or Saul who was a, an ISIS leader, if you will, of his day, uh, none of the leaders he chose would pass the evangelical litmus test. And, um, I said, you know, I, I do believe that he probably fits the mold of a J who more than anybody, uh, who was very narcissistic and very confident in his abilities. And Elijah gave him an assignment to clean the swamp, drain the swamp of Jezza bell and Ahab and bring in a whole new group of people. And he did that and he had no bones about it. And I am sure that he was not, um, very good at bedside manner. Speaker 3: (13:09) Well, it'll be 20, 20 is going to be a highly interesting year. And, uh, I think just maybe closing off what I would say about this piece, if anybody expects whether president Trump wins or loses that there's going to be, you know, finally piece in some direction, you're very mistaken. Uh, you know, the polarization has not reached where it's going. And again, we're back to your first comment. What do I see to be the biggest issue? Most problematic is theirs. There's a heat level that has got to be turned up, uh, in order to change the people of God. And you and I, as the Chinese proverb would say, may you live in interesting times. We live in really interesting times and I think the next five, eight, maybe even 10 years is going to continue to be a sharp, a growing of the two opposites and the polarities, uh, all designed to squeeze the church into changing on fundamental levels so that it does really become the redemptive social organization of community. Speaker 2: (14:29) Yeah. So given the hand that we've been dealt here, uh, how do you see, uh, us as leaders being able to make a difference in some, at some level and, uh, where we are? Speaker 3: (14:43) Yeah. Another good question. Speaker 3: (14:45) Well. Mmm. I would say in the years of real direct activism that I, I would say in my life, which I came back to Christ in the latter part of 1968 the first seven years, God basically said, forget about changing the world. We're going to change you. And, uh, my passion became theology. And it wasn't until the latter part of the 70s really that I began to deal with the crisis that my worldview, I've been totally conceived and directed by the secular world academic systems. At which point I panicked and said, where do I go to be discipled? You know, where, how do I get rid of Pharaoh taught me everything I know about history and economics and psychology and sociology, all the rest of what I was very tied up in. And of course the economic piece was, they are from the beginning. And so I'm saying from that time, uh, you know, with president Reagan and the Evangel, Jimmy Carter and the evangelicals began to get involved in number of us, you know, started working in Washington D C and building coalitions in the U S and beyond. Speaker 3: (16:18) But that having Ben said, the speed at which globally Christian leaders who actually can think are coming together is happening at a rate I've never seen before. Hmm. It's, I, I liken this time right now to Noah and I'm watching, I'm traveling as much as ever, which at my age is crazy, but it's the way it is. It's like the animals heading for some kind of union, some kind of unity and they are being driven by the Holy spirit. And I'm, I'm seeing small armies of leaders all over the world coming together and uh, uh, very, very excited about that because that is the leadership group that is going to be required to leverage the masses, whatever part of the masses, both Christianity and fellow travelers. You think about Matt, Matthew 13 and the parable of the kingdom net visa said that that net of the kingdom, the message and lifestyle would be cast into the masses and then it eventually would be gathered up and that the angels would come to sort out those that belonged in that net. And those that were just fellow travelers. And I'm, my Speaker 2: (17:50) eschatology strongly believes that that kingdom net is being drawn, begun to be drawn right now and it's going to have a lot of unsaved people in it who basically are agreeing that they can no longer go along with where culture, society, the corruption, the rest of it is going and they're going to at least join whatever part of the kingdom, significant kingdom remnant is being created. And that is what I see Oz. And uh, if I did not see that I would, we have very pessimistic man because again, the fragmentation, the loss of truth, the stunning loss of the belief that objective truth even exists is beyond words. And if I did not see this net beginning to pull leaders together around the world whose primary job will be to engage and educate, then I would be, I'd be not just concerned, I'd be depressed, but I'm not. Speaker 2: (18:57) I'm excited. Well, you know, we had a summit in the us in March and we had a 350 leaders of leaders that came. It was a one of the most unique gatherings of leaders collectively from different streams in the body of Christ and different aspects. And, uh, it was, uh, it was impressive time of, of bringing them together. Yes, I'm aware of the meeting, the, uh, you know, what, uh, Wilberforce did and bringing a small group together for collective influence has always been a model that I've admired. But I've been waiting for that model to materialize. Of course, the left, uh, with this initiative called thunder road as raised billions and billions of dollars to fight God and society and to bring our nation into a much more liberal place. Uh, they call it progressive, I call it caressive, but you know, Mmm. Are our people must wake up to the fact that there is another group out there that wants to structure and control and, and socialism and all of these things. And, um, I don't know if you're familiar with zigzag, then you have a niche. And, uh, so that's one initiative. I don't know what that will be, but here was one initiative where some, uh, wealthy philanthropists are coming together to possibly see how they could play an impact on that and maybe answering the thunder road, but only time will Dale is to, as to what God raises up to usher in some of these younger leaders that can really fight the good fight and, uh, be, um, culture shapers and, uh, what we need. Speaker 2: (20:47) Okay. Uh, how do you see that model Wilberforce model today in an application? Speaker 3: (20:53) Okay. Well, so he Roy model, and I know the movie was, uh, inspirational, true story. Uh, I have two responses. I, I see that happening. I'm seeing coalitions formed as we speak. Mmm. On the other side of the equation, uh, God is not in a hurry. And, uh, we, human beings tend to be at hurry just because we're trapped. By time. I, I never imagined that we would, and I'm sitting in a lot of sunlight, so my hair does look very white. It's not quite [inaudible], but uh, uh, it's interesting to see the numbers of us that were in the draft of the Holy spirit in the late sixties and seventies are now in our sixties and seventies. And, uh, it's exciting to watch those men and women who had been waiting for this without maybe being explicitly as aware as they now are of the nature of the battle. But watching them come together. Speaker 3: (22:11) And I think one of the things that is really critical, and this is where prayer is going to be important, is the praying in of the next generations of leaders. We cannot allow what many of us have experienced in terms of wisdom, especially in seeing what doesn't work. I would say I've seen a lot of what doesn't work great theory, but for one reason or another did not pull the test of time or sustainability. I think prayer, he is going to become increasingly important to bridge the generations and make the connections with the gray hairs, with the ones that are in their forties and 50s who will be the next line of leaders. And, uh, I think that's really the great lesson there of what happened on the slavery issue, uh, in England is they had patients and the, there was a connection between the younger and the older that was able to push the ball over the goal line, so to speak. And I believe that happen here. Speaker 2: (23:22) Hmm. You know, what, uh, your organization specifically is doing what to be a catalyst for this? Speaker 3: (23:32) Well, we have, uh, several groups, but a public group called States the statesman project, something that we started about six years ago. Uh, the purpose, which is to connect people in different jurisdictions or spheres of life ministry and equip them with a biblical foundations of principles, what we call principle base public policy. So we've got group working on biblically based public policy in the world of monetary creation, uh, and, uh, on high levels, which has surprised me that we would get there as quickly as we have. We've got other groups, uh, working on immigration, uh, working on the major political issues so that when we show up, we're not preaching the Republican party or the democratic party. Most of the people I'm working with, uh, are quite clear that we need to move the church out of the left, right paradigm, uh, because God is going to create something new politically that is not going to be left and it's not going to be right. Speaker 3: (24:57) It's gotta be based on biblical foundations, the extrapolation, if you will, of old Testament law into new Testament grace. So we've got a number of leaders working in that area working in the area of ekklesia prayer. Convocations we did one on fractional reserve banking, which I'm sure was probably the only prayer convocation in history on fraction reserve. But, uh, we're working in those areas. We're working on elders in the Gates, the model of building church leadership, cooperative leadership and local communities. Um, and in education, uh, and in and in, uh, teaching and working with high level leaders to help them understand a biblically based principles, produce sustainability that cannot be acquired any other way. So we're, we're touching the academic educational, we're touching the on the street, uh, mobilization and service levels, uh, in communities, uh, and, and those kinds of things. Right now, both globally and here in the U S and, uh, making I think genuine progress where we're excited about what we're beginning to see form. Because Nicodemus is showing up at night. We have discovered that if you don't talk about who you're talking to or put those kinds of things in newsletters, or try and raise money by based on who you're working with, it's amazing who you can get to be with and what you can begin to do. Yeah. A lot more I could say about that, but [inaudible] Speaker 2: (26:45) yeah. So some of our listeners, uh, and those watching, uh, may not be that familiar with you. Would there be a one or two of your books that you would recommend people read that, um, could really get, uh, started and learning from you? Speaker 3: (27:02) Well, the most basic book I wrote, the first one was called [inaudible] winning the battle for the minds of men. Speaker 2: (27:08) Yeah. That was a great book. Speaker 3: (27:11) Uh, the second book was doing business God's way, which deals with the general principles of business and a biblical economics. In the last book I did, it's called on the destiny of nations, which lays the foundation for Christ, managing the nations and focused on the 2008 economic crisis. What was really involved in that and what we need to do to produce sustainable economic growth based on the principles of choice, generational momentum, capital creation, and the recognition of the limits. So anybody that's interested in the political economic world in particular, destiny of nations would be the most helpful, Speaker 2: (28:00) right? So if you're interested, go to his website, go strategic.org doesn't go strategic.org and you'll find that information there. And uh, is that also where this other initiative is located? Speaker 3: (28:16) Statesman project. We have a, a tab. When you get to go strategic, uh, you'll go to the website. We've got about 35 pages of strategic description on that website as to what we see wrong in generally what we're working to bring transformation to so that you get plenty of information. And then if you, uh, go through to go strategic, they will connect you where you want to get connected. Speaker 2: (28:44) Great. And, uh, for those of you who've been listening to our podcast over the last several months, you've heard me talk about a new initiative that's coming soon that we're not quite ready to tell you about it. But if you want to be on the waiting list, just go to our website, um, become God's change agent.com. Become God's change agent.com. And you'll go on the waiting list and you'll be the first ones notified about this new initiative and we hope that, uh, you'll be a part of that and you'll get a free download if you just go there. So. Well, Dennis, it's a always been, uh, always admired. You. Wish we'd spent more time together practically, but maybe, uh, in this season of life, maybe it'll still happen. I got faith for it as well. Thanks very much, Dennis. Thanks everybody for being with us today and we will see you next week. If you're on iTunes, don't forget to, um, you know, give us a rating that helps us, uh, be found by other people. And if you're on YouTube, please, um, become part of our community and give us a comment below. So God bless. We'll see you next week. God bless. Speaker 4: (29:58) Are you a biblical worker? Do you know what the Bible says about how to work biblically? I've got a great resource I Speaker 5: (30:06) want to give you called. Are you a biblical worker? It's a 50 question. True false self assessment, great for personal study and small groups. Plus you get the answers with supporting scriptures to help you apply what the Bible says about your daily work life. It's a value of $25, but we want to make it available to you as a free. 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