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An interview with Ted from The Gaslight Hour Podcast about the American journalist and UFOlogist, John Keel. Starting in the early 1970s, Keel began publishing books and articles that pushed back against the idea that UFOs are flying machines originating from elsewhere in our universe. His twelve books on the paranormal take a broader view that integrates the flying saucer phenomena into hauntings, cryptids, and demonic possession. Most of this first half of the discussion focuses on the evolution of Keel's thought; from his ideas about breakaway civilizations, to his 'ultra-terrestrial' and 'superspectrum' hypotheses. Towards the end, the conversation shifts to some of Keel's intellectual influences including possibly Charles Fort, Jacques Vallee, and an esoteric cyberneticist.