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So, you're digitally transforming... what does "good" look like? "Getting developers to the point where developers want to change." In this episode, Dormain sits down with Paul Pelafas (@paulpelafas) and Jonathan Regehr (@jonathanregehr) to hear how two different organizations navigated digital transformation journeys. They discuss what "good" looks like, how a healthy software culture is sustained (and destroyed), and the difference between grassroots and executive-led transformations. See full show notes here: https://tanzu.vmware.com/content/podcasts/a-tale-of-two-digital-transformations