Podcasts Culture NZ Vegan Podcast NZVP Ep.121 - first winter street stall and the disintegration of The Vegan Society

NZVP Ep.121 - first winter street stall and the disintegration of The Vegan Society

Published: Aug. 16, 2014, 1:53 p.m.

b'Listen HERE
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\\nHere is the link to the Vegan Printer: www.veganprinter.com
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\\nHere is links to heaps of the articles and Facebook postings about The Vegan Society debacle:
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THE "VEGAN" SOCIETY WITHDRAWS "THERE, WE SAID IT. YOU DON\'T HAVE TO BE VEGAN." - Facebook post about the \'rebrand\' and the changes they made after the first protest of the new TVS campaign
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\\nhttp://www.abolitionistapproach.com/moment-silence-donald-watson-founder-vegan-society/#.U-9o90sQcbS
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\\nhttp://www.abolitionistapproach.com/vegan-society-ambassador-fiona-oakes-veganism-not-for-everyone-probably-not-many-people/#.U-9cK0sQcbS
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\\nhttp://www.abolitionistapproach.com/manager-vegfestuk-tim-barford-many-people-get-ill-vegan-diet/#.U-9clEsQcbQ
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\\nhttp://www.abolitionistapproach.com/cant-make-stuff-vegan-society-ambassador-fiona-oakes-says-promoting-veganism-moral-imperative-causes-damage-animals/#.U-9cF0sQcbQ
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\\nhttp://www.abolitionistapproach.com/vegan-society-corporate-partners-sustainable-animal-agriculture/#.U-9cBEsQcbQ
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\\nhttp://www.abolitionistapproach.com/brought-vegan-society-disrepute-insisted-vegan-society-vegan/#.U-9cb0sQcbQ
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\\nhttp://www.abolitionistapproach.com/vegan-society-decide/#.U-9cqEsQcbQ
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\\nPart 1 of the debate between Tim Barford and Gary Francione: http://www.goveganradio.com/2014/08/04/3-august-2014/
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\\nPart 2 of the debate:  http://www.goveganradio.com/2014/08/13/10-august-2014/
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\\nFacebook events page for the debate: https://www.facebook.com/events/809889079061401/
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\\nThis is the debate between Gary Francione and Erik Marcus: a MUST listen for any advocate:  http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/audio/#erik-marcus-20070225  There is also a pdf of the transcript the relevant part I was referring to is here:
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\\n"...as far as what we say to people who don\\u2019t ... I\\u2019m not\\nreally interested in designing campaigns \\u2013 I mean look, Erik, there are going to be people\\nwho disagree, they\\u2019re going to be people who aren\\u2019t interested at all. So shall I design\\n
\\nmy campaign and shall I target my efforts to the people that don\\u2019t care?\\n
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\\nYou know, last night I saw this movie Amazing Grace, it wasn\\u2019t a perfect movie, but it\\nwas certainly, given the grand scheme of horrible movies these days, it was a worthwhile\\nmovie to see. It was about Wilbur Wilberforce, who actually with Richard Martin, I
\\nthink this is accurate, that he started the RSPCA in England, but William Wilberforce
\\nwas also an abolitionist with respect to slavery. And it was very interesting, because he\\nhad to confront this very issue. That, at the time that he decided slavery should be\\nabolished most people thought slavery shouldn\\u2019t be abolished, and yet, he didn\\u2019t propose\\nthat we ought to make slavery more humane. He took an abolitionist position\\ncontinuously, and eventually he prevailed. So I\\u2019m not really interested in worrying\\n
\\nabout \\u2013 yeah, are there some people out there that don\\u2019t care?\\n
\\nYou used the expression \\u201cgratuitous cruelty\\u201d I don\\u2019t even know what the hell that means,\\nErik. I really don\\u2019t even know what that means, gratuitous cruelty. What does that\\nmean? We don\\u2019t need to eat animals at all. Nobody maintains \\u2013 its 2007, nobody, not\\neven the United States government maintains that we need to eat any animal products to\\nbe optimally healthy. Indeed an increasing number of mainstream healthcare people are\\ntelling us that eating animal products isn\\u2019t good for us. So, all suffering in connection\\nwith animals that we\\u2019re raising for food is gratuitous. So I don\\u2019t know what you mean\\nwhen you say gratuitous cruelty.\\n
\\nBut, are there people who don\\u2019t care? Yes, Erik, there are people who don\\u2019t care, and\\nthere are a lot of people who do care. And what I\\u2019m interested in doing is reaching those\\npeople, and when I reach them, the last thing in the world I want to tell them is, \\u201cHey\\nlook, you\\u2019re going to go from Abu Ghraib to a minimum security Connecticut prison if\\nyou buy cage-free eggs.\\u201d I\\u2019m not going to tell them that. I\\u2019m going to tell them if they\\ncare about this issue there\\u2019s one choice: go vegan. And you know what? Some people\\nare going to turn off to that, and some people are going to turn on to that, and what I\\u2019m\\ninterested in is the people who turn on to it, because every person I turn on to it decreases\\ndemand. That\\u2019s what we\\u2019ve got to do, is decrease the demand. And the way you\\ndecrease demand is you get people to stop using these products altogether. You don\\u2019t do\\nit by imposing opportunity costs that are so deminimist that producers can pass those\\ncosts along to consumers and not lose a cent of profit. Indeed, there is a huge markup. I\\ndon\\u2019t know if you\\u2019ve shopped at Whole Foods recently, but they\\u2019re making a lot of\\nmoney. Those products are marked up tremendously. Those producers are making a\\ntremendous profit. I don\\u2019t think that\\u2019s the solution. As a matter of fact, I\\u2019m sure it\\u2019s not."
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\\nHere is my Facebook status I read out:  https://www.facebook.com/NZVegan/posts/541388332629761
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\\n"Listening to the second part of the debate between Gary Francione and Tim Barford. So far we are at just the first question, re: having groups like "Part-Time Carnivore" attend Veg Fest. Tim is justifying this by saying cutting down to say 20% animal products is still going to have an immensely positive effect on the environment and human health, as well as decreasing by 80% the amount of animals used.
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Nobody is disputing that less harm is better. Nobody is disputing that or has ever disputed that. It is not an issue that is focused on in human rights campaigning against fundamental human rights abuses like rape (I mean, less rape is better right? So should we campaign for \'less rape\'? NO!!! We should and do campaign for NO RAPE!)

The main theme of Tim\'s position and of every single other welfarist I have debated myself in various places, is the same one. Their position is: if you advocate for veganism unequivocally, not only will people not even begin to think about these issues at all, and therefore because they won\'t even begin to think about them that means they will therefore never start to examine their animal use, leading them to start to cut down on their animal use anyway, of their own volition, based on these issues they are beginning to think about because they were talked to about veganism - not only will they not do that, but that they will completely and utterly, down to the last person, freak out, reject the entire thing entirely, and will make NO reductions and might even increase animal use out of some kind of perverse notion and will never, ever go vegan, or ever cut down, or ever have their consciousness awoken in the slightest bit about the immorality of animal use.

This is their claim. Based on this erroneous belief, they claim we *have* to promote "meat free Mondays" or "part time Carnivore" or welfare \'reforms\' or \'cutting down\' etc and we cannot promote veganism unequivocally or hold veganism as the moral baseline. Otherwise, they claim, NO ONE will make ANY CHANGES. EVER. That\'s their position.Does that make sense to you? That doesn\'t make sense to me either." 
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\\nThanks for listening
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