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GUEST BIO:

Dave is a computer programmer and was an original signatory and author of The Manifesto For Agile Software Development.\\xa0 He has also co-authored several books, including \\u201cThe Pragmatic Programmer\\u201d, and was a co-founder of the Pragmatic Bookshelf.

EPISODE DESCRIPTION:

Dave Thomas is Phil\\u2019s guest on today\\u2019s show. He is a well-known programmer who works in numerous programming languages, in particular, Elixir, Ruby and agility. Dave is one of the original signatories and author of The Manifesto for Agile Software Development. Over the years, Dave has published several other books and is a trainer. Currently, he is also an Adjunct Professor at the Southern Methodist University.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

(0.45) \\u2013 So, Dave, can you expand on that brief introduction and tell us a little bit more about yourself? Dave says that fundamentally he is a programmer. For the past 45 years he has enjoyed coding and has done it practically every day. Most of the other things, he does really just to make a living. For example, he published more books when things crashed in the early 2000s. Even then, he spent time writing the various bits of infrastructure, he just could not stay away from the code.

(3.08) \\u2013 Are you still involved in the pragmatic? Dave says that about 18 months ago, with Andy\\u2019s agreement, he stepped back a bit on the day-to-day stuff. He had other things he wanted to investigate and basically did not have enough time to do so. Right now, he is almost like a Victorian gentleman scientist exploring things on his own. But, he has spent about a year shuttling from one thing to another. He is now focused again.

(4.21) \\u2013 Phil asks Dave to share a unique IT career tip. We work in the fastest changing industry that ever existed, so you need to keep up. You can\\u2019t know everything, but you can look at what is coming up and pick a few things that are likely to make it. Then spend a bit of time learning and researching those.

(5.20) \\u2013 A lot of people say my employer does not give me time to do that. Dave\\u2019s response is that is not your employer\\u2019s job. It is your career - you need to invest in yourself. If you do not, you and your skills will slowly become irrelevant as new technology replaces what you are good at.

(6.11) \\u2013 Dave is asked to share his worst career moment and what he learned from that experience. After 45 years, Dave has understandably had quite a few bad career moments. At least, things that felt bad at the time. But, usually he learned a lot from those situations. So, in the end, many of those experiences turned out to be positive ones. When you are working in such a malleable format it is very easy to mess things up. However, with a bit of discipline and patience, it is also very easy to fix the problem.

(7.29) \\u2013 Phil asks Dave what his best career moment was. Dave explained that, like most people, he has a need to create. So, when he finds his \\u201csoftware expressing me\\u201d he gets a lift. A great example of this is the Prestel videotext system, from the 1970s. Dave was involved in writing a front end so that people could find flight availability and book them via travel agents. One day, Dave was walking down a High Street, looked in a travel agents window and saw his software running. Seeing that brought home the fact that what he was doing really was making a difference.

(9.53) \\u2013 Dave explained that whenever he publishes a book, he also goes to a bookstore to see it on the shelf. Seeing a physical manifestation of your work helps you to fully appreciate what you have achieved and is very fulfilling.

(11.11) \\u2013 So, Dave what excites you about the future of the IT industry and careers in IT in particular? For Dave the fact that in IT you are shaping the world, literally. You cannot do much, these days, without IT. We can do great things with IT, which is exciting. In the very near future our coding will become part of the fabric of life. Now we code things that mainly happen via a screen or browser. In the future, our work will become an ambient background to people\\u2019s lives. That is a phenomenal responsibility, but incredibly empowering.

(13.31) \\u2013 What first attracted you to a career in IT? When Dave did his A-levels he took them a year earlier, so had no work to do at school. Fortunately, he was not allowed to simply leave. Instead, his school sent him across the road to take the first-ever A-level UK programming classes. They were using Basic, with a teletype paper tape punch, but Dave was captivated by the work. He had planned to study math, instead he studies software at university and begun his IT career.

(15.31) \\u2013 What is the best career advice you were given? Dave\\u2019s first job was working for a startup. They were asked to produce a coupon compiler, by a client. The director of that company had quite a bit of technical understanding, but there were some important gaps in his knowledge. So, at some point in the meeting Dave said \\u2013 \\u201cNo, you\\u2019re wrong. That\\u2019s not right\\u201d blah, blah. There was a deathly silence. At which point his boss stepped in and moved things along. Afterward the meeting he apologized. But, his boss said \\u201cNo it\\u2019s OK, you did the right thing, just not in the right way.\\u201d That incident stayed with him. It made Dave realize that we should not be saying yes all the time. Instead, we have to find a way of saying no without putting people\\u2019s backs up.

(16.43) \\u2013 If you were to start your IT career again, right now, what would you do? Dave replied \\u201cIt depends\\u201d, but he would probably not go to college or university. Instead, he would look for a company that ran a good apprenticeship scheme and join. He would then spend 5 to 10 years flitting across different areas. At that point, he would reflect on those years and work out the thing that he enjoyed the most and work in that field. Phil agreed that was a good approach. People tend to forget that taking a job is not a lifetime commitment. In the early days, it is probably only an 18-month commitment. Nobody expects any more from you, so it makes sense to take advantage of that fact and move around until you find something you love doing.

(19.15) \\u2013 Phil asks Dave what he is currently focusing on for his career. Dave says \\u201cchanging the world\\u201d, kind of. Right now, he has two main aims. Firstly, he wants to encapsulate and share what he has learned. He is on the board of a company that teaches genuine software skills to 8 to 14-year-olds. These days, coding literacy is as important as any foreign language. The other objective is to simplify software development. Things do not have to be anywhere near as complicated as they are now. Dave believes we can make software development far easier and is working on doing exactly that.

(21.25) \\u2013 What is the number one non-technical skill that has helped you the most in your IT career? Dave says that enjoying learning has helped him tremendously. Being able to move across industries and learn your client\\u2019s jobs, how they work and what their problems are all helps you to build software that solves the real problem, rather than just meeting the spec.

(22.46) \\u2013 Phil asks Dave to share a final piece of career advice. Dave says that you need to \\u201cremember to make it fun.\\u201d You need to look forward to going to work, at least most of the time. If you feel that way you will do a good job.

BEST MOMENTS:

(3.06) DAVE \\u2013 \\u201cYou just can\'t keep me away from the code.\\u201d

(3.39) DAVE \\u2013 \\u201cI\'ve been almost like a Victorian gentlemen scientist for the last two years, just exploring stuff on my own.\\u201d

(5.38) DAVE \\u2013 \\u201cThe most important tip is to invest in yourself. To keep yourself current, spend some time and a little bit of money on a personal level, just to make sure that you\'re still relevant.\\u201d

(7.24) DAVE \\u2013 \\u201cI honestly think it\'s an important thing to learn that if you break it, you can fix it.\\u201d

(9.54) PHIL \\u2013 \\u201cI think seeing what you produce in action is self-fulfilling, in some ways.\\u201d

(13.07) DAVE \\u2013 \\u201cThe most exciting thing to look forward to is a future where we can really genuinely make the world better.\\u201d

CONTACT DAVE THOMAS:

Twitter: https://twitter.com/pragdave @pragdave

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dave-thomas-53aa1057/

Website: https://pragprog.com/