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Nicholas Cullinan from the National Portrait Gallery, London (NPG) and Elvira Dyangani Ose from the Museo de Arte Contempor\\xe1neo de Barcelona (MACBA) join Anne McElvoy to discuss the challenges of running a major art museum and their visions for the future of their respective institutions. They discuss connecting with a wider community which has involved the NPG showing a David Beckham portrait in the hospital he was born in, and plans at MACBA to open out the ground floor and use the squares that surround the museum in Barcelona; the impact of blockbuster shows about Vermeer and Picasso and creating a space for VR and video at the NPG and whether the trend for immersive art experiences - like the David Hockney immersive show running at The Lightroom near Kings Cross station until December 2023 \\u2013 is a good thing.

Producer: Torquil MacLeod

Frieze London runs from 11th - 15th October 2023. You can find previous Frieze/Free Thinking debates hearing from directors including Michael Govan, Sabine Haag & Hartwig Fischer; Suhanya Raffel, Richard Armstrong and Nathalie Bondil, Mikhail Borisovich Piotrovsky, Kaywin Feldman and Siak Ching Chong.