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Michael Little from Ratio in conversation with Toby Lowe on the relevance of complexity theory in public policy. Toby discusses how complexity theory can help policy makers and funders better respond to the world as it is (as opposed to the world we imagine with orderly relationships between inputs, outputs and outcomes). Toby and his team are working with practitioners and funders across the UK to build a new paradigm for helping people. Toby Lowe is a Senior Lecturer in Public Management at Newcastle Business School, Northumbria University.