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Lane Shackleton is CPO of Coda, where he\u2019s been leading the product and design team for over eight years. Lane started his career as an Alaskan climbing guide and then as a manual reviewer of AdWords ads before becoming a product specialist at Google and later a Group PM at YouTube. He also writes a weekly newsletter with insights and rituals for PMs, product teams, and startups. In today\u2019s conversation, we discuss:\u2022 Principles that set great PMs apart\u2022 Rituals of great product teams\u2022 The fine line between OKRs and strategy, and why it matters\u2022 \u201cTwo-way write-up\u201d\u2022 The story of how skippable YouTube ads were born and lessons learned\u2022 How to gauge personal career growth\u2022 \u201cTim Ferriss Day\u201d and its impact on Coda\u2019s history\u2022 How Lane bootstrapped his way to CPO from the bottom of the tech ladder

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Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/what-sets-great-teams-apart-lane-shackleton-cpo-of-coda/\xa0

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Where to find Lane Shackleton:

\u2022 X: https://twitter.com/lshackleton

\u2022 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laneshackleton

\u2022 Substack: https://lane.substack.com/

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Where to find Lenny:

\u2022 Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

\u2022 X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

\u2022 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Lane\u2019s background

(04:03) Working as a guide in Alaska

(07:32) Parallels between guiding and building software

(09:12) Why Lane started studying and writing about product teams

(12:49) How Lane came up with the career ladder and guiding principles

(14:10) The five levels Coda\u2019s career ladder

(16:30) Principles of great product managers

(21:06) The beginner\u2019s-mind ritual at Coda

(24:05) Two rituals: \u201ccathedrals not bricks\u201d and \u201cproactive not reactive\u201d

(27:46) How to develop your own guiding principles

(31:17) Learning from your \u201coh s**t\u201d moments

(36:03) Rituals from great product teams: HubSpot\u2019s FlashTags

(42:15) Rituals from great product teams: Coda\u2019s Catalyst

(47:01) Implementing rituals from other companies

(49:48) How to navigate changing vs. sticking with current rituals

(53:02) \u201cTag up\u201d and why one-on-one meetings are harmful\xa0

(55:27) Lane\u2019s handbook on strategy and rituals

(57:10) How skippable ads came about on YouTube\xa0\xa0\xa0

(1:01:46) Lane\u2019s path to CPO

(1:07:02) Advice for aspiring PMs

(1:10:53) Tim Ferriss Day at Coda

(1:13:24) Using two-way write-ups\xa0

(1:19:30) The fine line between OKRs and strategy, and why it matters

(1:21:41) Lightning round

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Referenced:

\u2022 Endurance: https://www.amazon.com/Endurance-Shackletons-Incredible-Alfred-Lansing/dp/0465062881

\u2022 Bret Victor\u2019s talk \u201cInventing on Principle\u201d: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGqwXt90ZqA

\u2022 Jeremy Britton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremybritton/

\u2022 Comedian on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/60024976

\u2022 The Score Takes Care of Itself: My Philosophy of Leadership: https://www.amazon.com/Score-Takes-Care-Itself-Philosophy/dp/1591843472

\u2022 The Creative Act: A Way of Being: https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Act-Way-Being/dp/0593652886

\u2022 AlphaZero: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaZero

\u2022 Antoine de Saint-Exup\xe9ry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_de_Saint-Exup%C3%A9ry

\u2022 Storyworthy: Engage, Teach, Persuade, and Change Your Life through the Power of Storytelling: https://www.amazon.com/Storyworthy-Engage-Persuade-through-Storytelling/dp/1608685489

\u2022 The Moth: https://themoth.org/events

\u2022 Seth Godin\u2019s website: https://www.sethgodin.com/

\u2022 The Obstacle Is the Way: The Timeless Art of Turning Trials into Triumph: https://www.amazon.com/Obstacle-Way-Timeless-Turning-Triumph/dp/1591846358

\u2022 Tony Fadell\u2019s TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uOMectkCCs

\u2022 FlashTags: A Simple Hack for Conveying Context Without Confusion: https://www.onstartups.com/flashtags-a-simple-hack-for-conveying-context-without-confusion

\u2022 How Coda builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-coda-builds-product

\u2022 100-dollar voting ritual: https://coda.io/@lshackleton/100-dollar-voting-exercise

\u2022 Pixar\u2019s Brain Trust: https://pixar.fandom.com/wiki/Brain_Trust

\u2022 Lane\u2019s product handbook: coda.io/producthandbook

\u2022 The rituals of great teams | Shishir Mehrotra of Coda, YouTube, Microsoft: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-rituals-of-great-teams-shishir-mehrotra-coda-youtube-microsoft/

\u2022 Principle #4: Learn by making, not talking: https://lane.substack.com/p/principle-4-learn-by-making-not-talking

\u2022 Phil Farhi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philfarhi/

\u2022 How to ask the right questions, project confidence, and win over skeptics | Paige Costello (Asana, Intercom, Intuit): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-ask-the-right-questions-project-confidence-and-win-over-skeptics-paige-costello-asana-intercom-intuit/

\u2022 Chip Conley\u2019s website: https://chipconley.com/

\u2022 Jeff Bezos Banned PowerPoint in Meetings. His Replacement Is Brilliant: https://www.inc.com/carmine-gallo/jeff-bezos-bans-powerpoint-in-meetings-his-replacement-is-brilliant.html

\u2022 Working Backwards: Insights, Stories, and Secrets from Inside Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Working-Backwards-Insights-Stories-Secrets/dp/1250267595

\u2022 Dory and Pulse: https://coda.io/@codatemplates/dory-and-pulse

\u2022 Turning the Flywheel: A Monograph to Accompany Good to Great: https://www.amazon.com/Turning-Flywheel-Monograph-Accompany-Great/dp/0062933795/

\u2022 Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion: https://www.amazon.com/Waking-Up-Spirituality-Without-Religion/dp/1451636024

\u2022 The Inner Game of Tennis: The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance: https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Game-Tennis-Classic-Performance/dp/0679778314

\u2022 Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The Difference and Why It Matters: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-Bad-Difference-Matters/dp/0307886239

\u2022 The Last Dance on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80203144

\u2022 Full Swing on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81483353

\u2022 Stephen Curry: Underrated on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/movie/stephen-curry-underrated/umc.cmc.23v0wxaiwz60bjy1w4vg7npun

\u2022 Arrested Development on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70140358

\u2022 Shishir\u2019s interview question clip on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lennyrachitsky/video/7160779872296652078

\u2022 The Ultimate Reference Check Template: https://coda.io/@startup-hiring/reference-checks-template

\u2022 SwingVision: https://swing.tennis/

\u2022 Waking Up app: https://www.wakingup.com/

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.