BROADCASTS.com

Rory Sutherland is widely regarded as one of the most influential (and most entertaining) thinkers in marketing and behavioral science. He\u2019s the vice chairman of Ogilvy UK, the author of Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life,\xa0and the founder of Nudgestock, the world\u2019s biggest festival of behavioral science and creativity. He champions thinking from first principles and using human psychology\u2014what he calls \u201cthinking psycho-logically\u201d\u2014over mere logic. In our conversation, we cover:

\u2022 Why good products don\u2019t always succeed, and bad ones don\u2019t necessarily fail

\u2022 Why less functionality can sometimes be more valuable

\u2022 The importance of fame in building successful brands

\u2022 The importance of timing in product success

\u2022 The concept of \u201cmost advanced, yet acceptable\u201d

\u2022 Why metrics-driven workplaces can be demotivating

\u2022 Lots of real-world case studies

\u2022 Much more

Note: We encountered some technical difficulties that led to less than ideal video quality for this episode, but the lessons from this conversation made it impossible for me to not publish it anyway. Thanks for your understanding and for bearing with the less-than-ideal video quality.\xa0

\u2014

Brought to you by:

\u2022 Pendo\u2014The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

\u2022 Cycle\u2014Your feedback hub, on autopilot

\u2022 Coda\u2014The all-in-one collaborative workspace

\u2014

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-most-people-miss-about-marketing

\u2014

Where to find Rory Sutherland:

\u2022 X: https://x.com/rorysutherland

\u2022 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland

\u2022 Book: Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Curious-Science-Creating-Business/dp/006238841X

\u2014

Where to find Lenny:

\u2022 Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

\u2022 X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

\u2022 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

\u2014

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Rory\u2019s background

(02:37) The success and failure of products

(04:08) Why the urge to appear serious can be a disaster in marketing

(08:05) The role of distinctiveness in product design

(12:29) The MAYA principle

(15:50) How thinking irrationally can be advantageous

(17:40) The fault of multiple-choice tests

(21:31) Companies that have successfully implemented out-of-the-box thinking

(30:31) \u201cPsycho-logical\u201d thinking

(31:45) The hare and the dog metaphor

(38:51) Marketing\u2019s crucial role in product adoption

(49:21) The quirks of Google Glass

(55:44) Survivorship bias

(56:09) Balancing rational ideas with irrational ideas

(01:06:19) The rise and fall of tech innovations

(01:09:54) Consistency, distinctiveness, and clarity

(01:21:12) Considering psychological, technological, and economic factors in parallel

(01:23:35) Where to find Rory

\u2014

Referenced:

\u2022 Google Glass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Glass

\u2022 Meta Portal TV: https://www.meta.com/portal/products/portal-tv/

\u2022 Rory\u2019s quote in a LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brad-jackson-04766642_the-urge-to-appear-serious-is-a-disaster-activity-7093497742710210560-1LYN/

\u2022 The MAYA Principle: Design for the Future, but Balance It with Your Users\u2019 Present: https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/design-for-the-future-but-balance-it-with-your-users-present

\u2022 Ogilvy: https://www.ogilvy.com/

\u2022 MCI: https://www.mci.world/

\u2022 Veuve Clicquot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veuve_Clicquot

\u2022 Why do the French call the British \u2018the roast beefs\u2019?: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2913151.stm

\u2022 The Killing on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-killing-f5da5c2d-4626-4ba9-bcf3-ff5f891771fb

\u2022 Original The Killing on BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017h7m1

\u2022 The Mandarin Oriental, Hong Kong: https://www.mandarinoriental.com/en/hong-kong/victoria-harbour

\u2022 SAT: https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/sat

\u2022 The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test: https://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

\u2022 What is the age of the captain?: https://www.icopilots.com/what-is-the-age-of-the-captain/

\u2022 Octopus Energy: https://octopus.energy/

\u2022 Kraken: https://octopusenergy.group/kraken-technologies

\u2022 Toby Shannan: https://theorg.com/org/shopify/org-chart/toby-shannan

\u2022 Dunbar\u2019s number: Why we can only maintain 150 relationships: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191001-dunbars-number-why-we-can-only-maintain-150-relationships

\u2022 AO: https://ao.com/

\u2022 Zappos: https://www.zappos.com/

\u2022 Joe Cano on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeycano/

\u2022 John Ralston Saul\u2019s website: https://www.johnralstonsaul.com/

\u2022 Voltaire\u2019s Bastards: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West: https://www.amazon.com/Voltaires-Bastards-Dictatorship-Reason-West/dp/0679748199

\u2022 Psycho-Logic: Why Too Much Logic Deters Magic: https://coffeeandjunk.com/psycho-logic/

\u2022 Herbert Simon\u2019s Decision-Making Approach: https://bura.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/4995/1/Fulltext.pdf

\u2022 Robert Trivers\u2019s website: https://roberttrivers.com/Welcome.html

\u2022 Crazy Ivan: https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=Crazy_Ivan

\u2022 The Joys of Being a Late Tech Adopter: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/technology/personaltech/joys-late-tech-adopter.html

\u2022 Jean-Claude Van Damme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Van_Damme

\u2022 Tim Berners-Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee

\u2022 Edward Jenner and the history of smallpox and vaccination: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

\u2022 The real story behind penicillin: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the-real-story-behind-the-worlds-first-antibiotic

\u2022 What Are Japanese Toilets?: https://www.bigbathroomshop.co.uk/info/blog/japanese-toilets/

\u2022 reMarkable: https://remarkable.com/

\u2022 Chumby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumby

\u2022 Survivorship bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

\u2022 Jony Ive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive

\u2022 Marc Newson\u2019s website: https://marc-newson.com/

\u2022 Designing Men: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2013/11/jony-ive-marc-newson-design-auction

\u2022 Qantas A330: https://marc-newson.com/qantas-a330/

\u2022 Herodotus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

\u2022 Big Decision? Consider It Both Drunk and Sober: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chunkamui/2016/03/22/wine-and-sleep-make-for-better-decisions/?sh=5c97fdc524b1

\u2022 How Henry Ford and Thomas Edison killed the electric car: https://www.speakev.com/threads/how-henry-ford-and-thomas-edison-killed-the-electric-car.4270/

\u2022 Watch Jay Leno get nostalgic and swoon over this 1909 EV: https://thenextweb.com/news/jay-leno-talk-about-electric-car-1909-baker

\u2022 Jay Leno\u2019s Garage: https://www.youtube.com/@jaylenosgarage

\u2022 Nudgestock: https://nudgestock.com/

\u2022 Akio Morita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akio_Morita

\u2022 Don Norman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnorman/

\u2022 What Makes Tesla\u2019s Business Model Different: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/072115/what-makes-teslas-business-model-different.asp

\u2022 Monica Lewinsky on X: https://x.com/MonicaLewinsky

\u2022 Blindsight: The (Mostly) Hidden Ways Marketing Reshapes Our Brains: azon.com/Blindsight-Mostly-Hidden-Marketing-Reshapes-ebook/dp/B07ZKZ5DWF

\u2022 Branding That Means Business: https://www.amazon.com/Branding-that-Means-Business-Economist-ebook/dp/B09QBCCH9N

\u2022 PwC: https://www.pwc.com

\u2022 Ryanair: https://www.ryanair.com

\u2022 British Airways: https://www.britishairways.com/

\u2022 Wrigley\u2019s began as a soap business: know when to pivot: https://theamericangenius.com/entrepreneur/wrigleys-began-as-soap-know-when-to-pivot/

\u2022 Transport for Humans: https://www.amazon.com/Transport-Humans-Perspectives-Pete-Dyson/dp/1913019357

\u2014

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

\u2014

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.