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Casey Winters is a longtime and legendary advisor and operator. He\u2019s worked with companies like Airbnb, Faire, Canva, Whatnot, Thumbtack, Tinder, and Reddit and until recently was the Chief Product Officer at Eventbrite, where he managed the PM, design, research, and growth marketing teams. Before Eventbrite, he led growth and product teams at Pinterest and Grubhub. In today\u2019s episode, we discuss what Casey calls the \u201czero interest rate phenomenon\u201d product manager and how to avoid becoming one. He provides valuable insights on thinking outside popular frameworks, shipping products efficiently, and avoiding overreliance on user research. We explore the three types of network effects, how to leverage them, and how to break someone else\u2019s network effect. Finally, Casey shares his contrarian approach to interviewing product managers and his thoughts on the future of PM roles with AI.

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Find the full transcript at: Zhttps://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey

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Where to find Casey Winters:

\u2022 Twitter: https://twitter.com/onecaseman

\u2022 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseywinters/

\u2022 Blog: https://caseyaccidental.com/

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Where to find Lenny:

\u2022 Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

\u2022 Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

\u2022 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Casey\u2019s background

(03:36) What Casey is up to

(05:24) Why the CPO position is frequently short-lived

(07:26) What Casey learned in his role as CPO of Eventbrite

(10:15) The \u201czero interest rate phenomenon\u201d product manager

(12:17) Advice for thinking outside common frameworks

(18:35) When to bring in research

(21:16) What Whatnot does

(21:59) Casey\u2019s approach to interviewing PMs\xa0

(23:29) Red flags in interview responses

(24:27) The future of product management with AI

(27:47) Founder intuition vs. team expertise

(33:33) How to influence founders

(37:17) Adding the delivery driver app at Grubhub

(40:00) Network effects

(43:10) Why Zillow is a sticky product

(44:05) How Grubhub\u2019s network effect got taken over by DoorDash and Uber Eats

(51:47) Don\u2019t underestimate the competition

(54:43) SaaS adding marketplace and vice versa

(01:02:30) Defining marketplaces

(1:03:34) What Substack is nailing

(1:05:43) Tips for B2C subscription startups

(1:13:15) Lightning round

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Referenced:

\u2022 Casey Winters on Lenny\u2019s Podcast previously: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within-your-company-casey-winters-eventbrite/

\u2022 Whatnot: https://www.whatnot.com/

\u2022 The 700-calorie breakfast you should eat if you want to live forever, according to futurist Ray Kurzweil: https://www.businessinsider.com/what-ray-kurzweil-eats-to-live-forever-2016-4

\u2022 The Way of the Gun on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/movie/the-way-of-the-gun-0fc9590c-3f85-48ab-96e9-1da1b9695065

\u2022 Notion AI: https://www.notion.so/product/ai

\u2022 Zapier: https://zapier.com/

\u2022 Founder intuition vs. team expertise vs. customer expertise: https://caseyaccidental.com/founder-intuition-team-expertise/

\u2022 Erika Warren on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erika-warren/

\u2022 Alyssa Ravasio (Hipcamp) on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alyssa-ravasio-23114717/

\u2022 Marketplace supply strategy: comprehensive, exclusive, or curated: https://a16z.com/2021/03/31/marketplace-supply-strategy/

\u2022 Nassim Taleb on Twitter: https://twitter.com/nntaleb

\u2022 The Innovator\u2019s Dilemma: The Revolutionary Book That Will Change the Way You Do Business: https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Change-Business/dp/0062060244

\u2022 OpenTable: https://www.opentable.com/

\u2022 Booking.com: https://www.booking.com/

\u2022 Faire: https://www.faire.com/

\u2022 How to increase your retention: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-increase-your-retention-issue

\u2022 The Goal: A Process of Ongoing Improvement: https://www.amazon.com/Goal-Process-Ongoing-Improvement/dp/0884271951

\u2022 Thinking, Fast and Slow: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555/r

\u2022 Profit from the Core: A Return to Growth in Turbulent Times: https://www.amazon.com/Profit-Core-Return-Growth-Turbulent/dp/1422131114/

\u2022 Party Down on Starz: https://www.starz.com/us/en/series/party-down/2011

\u2022 The Last of Us on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/the-last-of-us

\u2022 Station Eleven on HBO Max: https://www.hbomax.com/series/urn:hbo:series:GYZWoOQ6F9cLDCAEAAABP

\u2022 Kicking and Screaming on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70052286

\u2022 Raven by Kelela on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/06uhdSmIYrWRkdnAPjcRcT

\u2022 Optical Delusion by Orbital on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/2jQbFspnSh7erex6RDKQGJ

\u2022 Stakes Is High by De La Soul on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/3jlC2uhYNrhikZXLviEnpu

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.