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Marty Cagan\xa0is a luminary in the world of product. He\u2019s the author of two of the most foundational books for product teams\xa0and product leaders\xa0(Inspired\xa0and\xa0Empowered), he\u2019s the founder of Silicon Valley Product Group (one of\xa0the longest-running product advisory groups), and he\u2019s almost certainly worked with more product leaders and teams than any human alive. Now he\u2019s releasing his newest book,\xa0Transformed, which is sure to become a staple of\xa0tech-powered\xa0companies\xa0worldwide. Marty\u2019s previous appearance on our show remains one of the most popular episodes to date. In this conversation, we discuss:

\u2022 The rise of \u201cproduct management theater\u201d

\u2022 Changes in the PM role post-ZIRP and the shift from growth to build functions

\u2022 The disconnect between good product companies and online product advice

\u2022 How over-hiring has created challenges in the product industry

\u2022 The most important skills for PMs to build

\u2022 How to know if you\u2019re on a \u201cfeature team\u201d

\u2022 The potential disruption of product management by AI

\u2022 Marty\u2019s new book,\xa0Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model

\u2022 Four new competencies required for successful product\xa0organizations

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Brought to you by:

\u2022 Sprig\u2014Build a product people love

\u2022 Eppo\u2014Run reliable, impactful experiments

\u2022 Vanta\u2014Automate compliance. Simplify security.

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-management-theater-marty

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Where to find Marty Cagan:

\u2022 X:\xa0https://twitter.com/cagan

\u2022 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cagan/

\u2022 Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.svpg.com/

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Where to find Lenny:

\u2022 Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

\u2022 X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

\u2022 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Marty\u2019s background

(04:46) His take on the state of product management

(12:08) Product management theater

(18:33) Feature teams vs. empowered product teams

(24:48) Skills of a real product manager

(29:27) The product management reckoning is here

(32:05) Taking control of your product management career

(34:59) The challenge of finding reliable product management advice

(40:18) The disconnect between good product companies and the product management community

(44:23) Top-down vs. bottom-up cultures

(47:06) The shift in product management post-ZIRP era

(49:44) The changing landscape of product management

(52:05) The disruption of PM skills by AI

(55:56) The purpose and content of Marty\u2019s new book, Transformed

(01:02:05) The product operating model

(01:08:27) New competencies required for successful product teams

(01:11:25) Marty\u2019s thoughts on product ops

(01:15:13) Advice for founders who don\u2019t want product managers

(01:18:06) Lightning round

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Referenced:

\u2022 Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model: https://www.amazon.com/Transformed-Becoming-Product-Driven-Company-Silicon/dp/1119697336

\u2022 Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/INSPIRED-Create-Tech-Products-Customers/dp/1119387507

\u2022 Empowered: Ordinary People, Extraordinary Products: https://www.amazon.com/EMPOWERED-Ordinary-Extraordinary-Products-Silicon/dp/111969129X

\u2022 The nature of product | Marty Cagan, Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-nature-of-product-marty-cagan-silicon-valley-product-group/

\u2022 Product Leadership Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-leadership-theater/

\u2022 Product Management Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-management-theater/

\u2022 Linear: https://linear.app/

\u2022 How Linear builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linear-builds-product

\u2022 Brian Chesky\u2019s new playbook: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/brian-cheskys-new-playbook/

\u2022 Mamas, don\u2019t let your babies grow up to be coders, Jensen Huang warns: https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/27/jensen_huang_coders/

\u2022 Epic Waste: https://www.svpg.com/epic-waste/

\u2022 What is scrum and how to get started: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/scrum

\u2022 CSPO: https://www.scrumalliance.org/get-certified/product-owner-track/certified-scrum-product-owner

\u2022 PSPO: https://www.scrum.org/courses/professional-scrum-product-owner-training

\u2022 Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

\u2022 Continuous Discovery Habits: Discover Products That Create Customer Value and Business Value: https://www.amazon.com/Continuous-Discovery-Habits-Discover-Products/dp/1736633309

\u2022 Shreyas Doshi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shreyasdoshi/

\u2022 Ben Erez\u2019s LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7168978777966891008/

\u2022 Oracle: https://www.oracle.com/

\u2022 The essence of product management | Christian Idiodi (SVPG): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-essence-of-product-management-christian-idiodi-svpg/

\u2022 Making Meta | Andrew \u2018Boz\u2019 Bosworth (CTO): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto/

\u2022 Building a long and meaningful career | Nikhyl Singhal (Meta, Google): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-a-long-and-meaningful-career-nikhyl-singhal-meta-google/

\u2022 Partners at SVPG: https://www.svpg.com/team/

\u2022 Trainline: https://www.thetrainline.com/

\u2022 Almosafer: https://global.almosafer.com/

\u2022 Expedia: https://www.expedia.com/

\u2022 Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/

\u2022 Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

\u2022 The ultimate guide to product operations | Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-operations-melissa-perri-and-denise-tilles/

\u2022 Understanding the role of product ops | Christine Itwaru (Pendo): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/understanding-the-role-of-product-ops-christine-itwaru-pendo/

\u2022 Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making: https://www.amazon.com/Build-Unorthodox-Guide-Making-Things/dp/0063046067

\u2022 What\u2019s Our Problem?: A Self-Help Book for Societies: https://www.amazon.com/Whats-Our-Problem-Self-Help-Societies/dp/B0BVGH6T1Q

\u2022 Rivian: https://rivian.com/

\u2022 AI-1 airbag vest: https://www.klim.com/Ai-1-Airbag-Vest-3046-000

\u2022 Leslie Lamport\u2019s quote: https://quotefancy.com/quote/3702194/Leslie-Lamport-If-you-re-thinking-without-writing-you-only-think-you-re-thinking

\u2022 Joan Didion\u2019s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/264509-i-don-t-know-what-i-think-until-i-write-it

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.