Police Interaction Tips
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Brad Post: You\\u2019re listening to Your Best Defense Podcast. We are speaking to Oklahoma City Criminal Defense Attorney Jacquelyn Ford. Jacqui, how are you?
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\\nJacquelyn Ford: I\\u2019m doing well. Thank you.
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\\nBP: Good. Well, we\\u2019re just going to jump right in because it\\u2019s going to be an interesting podcast. Let\\u2019s talk about when you have a typical interaction with police. Basically, how to not get arrested. Let\\u2019s talk a little about that.
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\\nJF: Fair enough. I think the best way to avoid being arrested, clearly, is to not engage in criminal activity. But second, I advise people to avoid contact with law enforcement officers as much as possible. You can\\u2019t get arrested if you\\u2019re not in their presence, right? And you can\\u2019t get arrested if they\\u2019re not coming for you. Unfortunately, we live in a world, I think, that is different than where we lived even when I was growing up. This isn\\u2019t Mayberry anymore, and law enforcement\\u2019s position is no longer to protect and serve the public. I know that. I\\u2019ve cross-examined them. They have testified to this under oath. Their mission as today\\u2019s modern-day police is criminal law enforcement, not protecting and serving the community. So when you have that in mind, you need to understand that they are not necessarily your friends, and calling them and inviting them into your life may result in a less than pleasant experience. A lot of times the police get called because there\\u2019s some sort of domestic situation, and you and your old lady are fighting or he\\u2019s being a jerk, and she\\u2019s being crazy, and somebody wants somebody to leave. The fight escalates, and somebody eventually calls the police. Well, if you\\u2019re not in fear of imminent bodily harm or danger, there are probably bad things that are going to happen based on that phone call. A domestic situation has arisen; law enforcement is on their way. They are on their way armed and ready to defuse a highly stressful situation, which puts them at great stress, too. It increases their alertness, and they are there, you would hope, to just help you defuse. But more than likely, someone is going to get arrested. So how do you not get arrested? Don\\u2019t call the police on yourself. Don\\u2019t call the police on your loved ones because you\\u2019re mad and want to teach them a lesson. You should really reserve calling law enforcement into your life when it\\u2019s the last option, when you can\\u2019t resolve it in any other way. So I think our problem in this country right now is that we don\\u2019t know our neighbors, we don\\u2019t know our law enforcement officers. We don\\u2019t get to interact with them all the time, so they\\u2019re not your friends. They used to be, but now they\\u2019re not. They are here to arrest and put bad people in jail. When you know that\\u2019s their mindset, and that they approach every single interaction with you ready and prepared to kill you if necessary, then maybe think twice about inviting them in unnecessarily. Does that make sense?
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\\nBP: It does. Let\\u2019s talk about a typical traffic stop. You get pulled over. The police come (hopefully you have your seatbelt on), and you\\u2019re in an area where they can come directly to your car. What are some ways to respond in that type of situation?
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\\nJF: I advise everybody to handle law enforcement officers with respect. They are not approaching that car expecting to encounter a good, law-abiding citizen. For whatever reason, in their training (and I know this from their own words and from speaking to their training officers), they are approaching a normal traffic stop assuming you are a bad person and their life is in danger. Now, I don\\u2019t like to function under fear. We know what happens to our bodies when we\\u2019re in fear; we have two options, fight or flight, and let me tell you something. You can\\u2019t flee the police during a traffic stop because that will make it worse, and you also can\\u2019t fight the police officers in a traffic stop. So we need to make sure that we\\u2019re not functioning from a place of fear, number one. Number two, answer only the questions that are asked of you, and don\\u2019t try to explain anything. You have to be kind of careful of some of the questions they are asking, because their questions are designed to be very conversational, but what they\\u2019re doing is seeking probable cause. They\\u2019re asking you questions to determine whether or not they believe you\\u2019re up to good or no good.
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\\nBP: And these are kind of cop tricks, right? Them interviewing and asking questions?
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\\nJF: Right. And this is how they\\u2019re trained, and it\\u2019s been accepted by most courts most often. So when you know that cops are allowed to lie to you\\u2014and they are allowed to lie directly to your face\\u2014and nobody is going to do anything about that for you, then you now have to be suspect about some of the things that law enforcement is saying to you. They are not usually there to help you out of a bad situation, right? They have you pulled over, you\\u2019ve already violated the law in their eyes. Their goal now is to get into the car, search the car, see if there\\u2019s more criminal activity going on, ask you a battery of questions, ask your passengers a battery of questions. My advice to clients is this: if you\\u2019ve been pulled over on a traffic stop, treat the officer with respect. He hasn\\u2019t done anything to you to earn anything other than respect. And he may or may not be respectful for you in return. That doesn\\u2019t matter; we can\\u2019t control that. So you provide your driver\\u2019s license and insurance verification. As the follow-up questions start coming in, I often tell my clients to politely refuse to answer those questions. Where I am going and where I\\u2019ve been aren\\u2019t relevant to whether or not I\\u2019ve been speeding. Those questions are designed to ask me and my passenger what\\u2019s going on because, in their training and experience, those answers not matching up give them what they believe to be probable cause. This starts working toward probable cause to search your car, search you, and eventually arrest you. So these questions are not necessary for the purpose of their traffic stop. I advise my clients to politely say, \\u201cI\\u2019ve given you my license and registration. Is there anything you need from me to complete this traffic stop?\\u201d Now, depending on the temperature of our officer, that\\u2019s either going to be received well or not well. We have business cards in our office we\\u2019ve printed out based on Supreme Court cases and cases dealing with answering law enforcement questions. A lot of times clients get frustrated because they say, \\u201cOh, I wasn\\u2019t read the Miranda.\\u201d Well, your Miranda Rights are only applicable if you are in custody and being interrogated. So they don\\u2019t have to read you Miranda Rights to ask where you\\u2019re going, where you\\u2019ve been, or your travel plans. What I tell my clients to do\\u2014and it\\u2019s on the business cards. I\\u2019ll just read it to you. It\\u2019s on the back of the card we provide clients in the office. It says, \\u201cOn the advice of my attorney, I respectfully decline to answer on the basis of the Fifth Amendment, which according to the United States Supreme Court, protects everyone, even innocent people, from the need to answer questions if the truth might be used to create the misleading perception that they were somehow involved in a crime that they did not commit.\\u201d Is this going to be well-received? I guess it just depends on the police officer. The police officers who aren\\u2019t going to like the tone of this podcast are the police officers who won\\u2019t like the tone of that response. But always keep your own personal cool. You can\\u2019t help escalate the situation. We\\u2019ve seen it on videos and the CopBlock of how these people are trying to avoid answering questions at DUI checkpoints. The fact of the matter is, you have the right to refuse to answer those questions. If they want to arrest you, you have the right to refuse to answer questions then, too. If it\\u2019s going to get worse before it gets better anyway, then stop talking. That\\u2019s a huge problem that people have. You have a very important Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. It\\u2019s in the United States Constitution\\u2014in the Bill of Rights. And it\\u2019s there because it\\u2019s a very important right. Exercise it! The less you say, the less information you can give them to either rightfully or wrongfully believe that criminal activity is afoot. So I tell my clients to be respectful, answer the limited number of questions regarding your driver\\u2019s license and insurance. The rest of it, you really just need to keep your mouth shut. \\u201cOfficer, I\\u2019d like to not answer those questions at this time. Is there anything you need from me for the purposes of this traffic stop?
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\\nBP: Usually are they required to tell you what they pulled you over for?
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\\nJF: Yes, I think most police officers know they have to tell you\\u2014they\\u2019re going to have to tell somebody why they pulled you over. It\\u2019s going to be in the PC affidavit at some point. So yeah, they should tell you why they pulled you over. Often they like to ask questions like, \\u201cDo you know why I pulled you over?\\u201d That\\u2019s a tricky one. I\\u2019m asked that question\\u2014I have a lead foot and tend to get pulled over a lot\\u2014and sometimes, I say, \\u201cYes, Officer Smith. I was speeding. I apologize.\\u201d But I feel very comfortable interacting with law enforcement, and I also understand that me acknowledging the fact that I was speeding is probably going to help me move the situation along. Sometimes maybe I don\\u2019t know why I got pulled over, or sometimes I think it was speeding but I\\u2019m not sure, so sometimes I say, \\u201cNo, Officer. Why did I get pulled over?\\u201d because maybe he pulled me over for something besides speeding and now I\\u2019ve just ponied up to another crime and I\\u2019m not taking my own personal advice. So do as I say and not as I do. But I don\\u2019t like answering the question \\u201cDo you know why I pulled you over?\\u201d because the much more appropriate thing is the officer telling you why he or she pulled you over.
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\\nBP: \\xa0When do you consent to a search if they want to search your car?
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\\nJF: My advice is always don\\u2019t consent ever. People ask me why, and because unless nobody else has been in your car for the entire time you\\u2019ve owned it, then you probably don\\u2019t know everything that\\u2019s in your car. And law enforcement doesn\\u2019t ask for your permission unless they need it. They don\\u2019t have a right to search your car without a warrant first or your consent. They must be able to, in the future in legal documents, articulate reasonable facts that gave them a reason to believe that criminal activity was afoot before they searched that car. That right is so important. Why just give it away? That\\u2019s my position on consent: why just give it away if people literally have lost their lives defending it? So, I generally advise not to consent to a search. Sometimes, if you know the dog\\u2019s coming anyway and you know you\\u2019re about to get busted anyway, people wonder what to do. If it\\u2019s going to happen, let it happen. Don\\u2019t let your own words \\u201cput you in the pokey.\\u201d Don\\u2019t say, \\u201cOh no, please, Officer. Don\\u2019t search. Here\\u2019s the marijuana in my console.\\u201d You\\u2019re hurting my ability to help you in the future. And law enforcement would disagree. They\\u2019ll say you\\u2019re cooperating and they\\u2019ll tell the DA. But that\\u2019s absolutely not true. I\\u2019ve represented well 5,000 criminal defendants, and not one district attorney has said, \\u201cYou know, your client confessed and handed over the smoking gun, so we\\u2019re just going to let him slide on this one.\\u201d That\\u2019s a cop trick, the idea that they\\u2019re going to work with you on this one and make this better for you. They can, theoretically, by not arresting you, but what law enforcement officer do you think is going to not arrest you with the marijuana or the smoking gun in your car? So, my advice? Don\\u2019t consent. My advice with respect to making voluntary statements? Don\\u2019t do it. \\xa0If you\\u2019re going to make a statement to law enforcement and you don\\u2019t have a lawyer with you, you\\u2019re doing yourself an incredible disservice. Call me. I have taken my clients in and made statements before, but those are strategic, thoughtful, meaningful decisions that we made together, not in a fast environment, not on the fly. You have to have the advice of counsel, and you have to have somebody representing your interests when you\\u2019re talking to law enforcement, because they are not there to represent your interests. So you\\u2019re protecting your Fourth Amendment right by not consenting to a warrantless search. Good job. Protect your Fifth Amendment right by not saying anything that can be used against you because they will, if they can, use it against you. It\\u2019s not that it might be used, it\\u2019s that it can and will be used against you. And the third important right is your Sixth Amendment right to an attorney. That\\u2019s why you don\\u2019t talk without a lawyer, and it goes back to why do you hire a lawyers? Because we have these important rights that have to be protected against government intrusion. The Fourth, Fifth, and the Sixth Amendments specifically apply to all of my clients, so you never want to waive any of them without the advice of counsel. You have the right to record law enforcement. I tell all of my clients to have a recording mechanism on their phone\\u2014and I don\\u2019t mean your phone\\u2019s recorder, because unfortunately, not all officers but some officers will take your phone and destroy that. So I advise my clients to put some sort of app on their phone (and there are plenty through the app store) that allow you to record law enforcement. That recording is sent via the Web to a streaming service, and it\\u2019s there if and when your phone gets \\u201clost\\u201d or \\u201cbroken\\u201d or \\u201cmisplaced\\u201d in the evidence room. I believe that any law enforcement officer who\\u2019s doing his job and doing his job right would want that, too. I advocate very strongly for police cameras\\u2014body cams, dash cams, interior car cams\\u2014because it protects everybody. It\\u2019s not designed to punish the officer; it\\u2019s designed to protect the citizen accused.
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\\nBP: All right. You\\u2019ve been listening to Your Best Defense Podcast with Attorney Jacquelyn Ford, and you can see her website at www.fordlawokc.com.
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