George Saunders on the Braindead Megaphone That Makes Our Politics So Awful
George Saunders is regarded as one of our greatest living fiction writers. He won the Booker Prize in 2017 for his novel \u201cLincoln in the Bardo\u201d and has published numerous short-story collections to wide acclaim, including his most recent book, \u201cLiberation Day.\u201d He also happens to be one of my favorite people to read and to talk to.\n\nSaunders is an incredibly prescient and sharp observer of American political culture. Way back in 2007, he argued that our media environment was transforming politics into a competition within which the loudest voices would command the most attention and set the agenda for everyone else. With the rise of social media \u2014 and the advent of the Trump era \u2014 that observation has been more than vindicated. So as we approach the midterm elections, I wanted to have Saunders back on the show to talk about how politics and media have changed, and how those changes are shaping the way we interact, communicate and even think.\n\nWe discuss how Twitter takes advantage of \u2014 even warps \u2014 our \u201cmalleable\u201d selves, how politicians like Marjorie Taylor Greene strategically manipulate our attentional environments, how Barack Obama leveraged our human desire to be seen as our best selves, whether discipline or gentleness is more effective in helping others grow, what options we have to resist anti-democratic tendencies in our politics, whether a post-scarcity future \u2014 with jobs for everyone \u2014 would leave us more or less satisfied, how the greatest evils can be committed by those trying to care for their loved ones, what attending Trump rallies taught Saunders about political violence and more.\n\nMentioned:\n\nThe Braindead Megaphone by George Saunders\n\n\u201cHost\u201d by David Foster Wallace\n\n\u201cThe Semplica-Girl Diaries\u201d by George Saunders\n\nBullshit Jobs by David Graeber\n\n\u201cWhat It Means to Be Kind in a Cruel World\u201d by The Ezra Klein Show\n\n\u201cI Didn\u2019t Want It to Be True, but the Medium Really Is the Message\u201d by Ezra Klein\n\nBook Recommendations:\n\nThe Storm Is Here by Luke Mogelson\n\nSugar Street by Jonathan Dee\n\nMarlena by Julie Buntin\n\nThoughts? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. (And if you\u2019re reaching out to recommend a guest, please write \u201cGuest Suggestion\u201d in the subject line.)\n\nYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of \u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\u201d at\xa0nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at\xa0https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.\n\n\u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\u201d is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rog\xe9 Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Mary Marge Locker. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.