BROADCASTS.com

Intro Guy 0:00
Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you\'ve questioned so much more than those around you. You\'ve even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general you\'re so limited thought process Rest assured, you are not alone. The world is slowly waking up to what you already know inside yet can\'t quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the question you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world the people in it? Most importantly, how do I proceed now moving forward? We don\'t even have all the answers but we sure do love living in the question. Time for another hit of spiritual dub with your host Brandon Handley. Let\'s get right into today\'s episode.

Brandon Handley 0:43
Hey there spiritual dope. I\'m on here today with Lincoln Stoller. He is a mind strength, balanced, focused personality who is he\'s got his PhD ch T. You got a bunch of initials all you know what they all stand for. But he\'s got experience in science, business project management, teaching biofeedback training, and hypnotherapy. Scott, his PhD in quantum many body theory out of the University of Texas in Austin. If can hypnotherapists international medical and dental hypnotherapy Association and also clinical counselor or the Canadian college of professional counselors and psychotherapist Lincoln, thanks for being on today. I know that you reached out to me just to kind of pop on and have a conversation, I guess around the psychedelic realm. Right? Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah. And look, I mean, it\'s actually kind of funny. I, one of my, one of my clients was out of the University of Texas in Austin, once upon a time. So small world, small world. So I usually like to start this off with the whole idea that, you know, you and I were just basically conduits for universal energy, right? It is flowing through us at all times. And like we kind of, we were just expressing life energy one way or another. And when we have this conversation, you and I, you and I are talking to each other. We think we know what we\'re talking about to each other. But the person listening is listening, they\'re hearing something totally different, right? And there\'s a message that can only be delivered through you today to that person and listening. What is that message that\'s coming through today like

Lincoln Stoller 2:31
that we\'re part of an evolving system that\'s bigger than we are? In your little intro there. I would say I\'m also talking or always feel like I\'m talking to the culture, a kind of really amorphous being that\'s made up of all our little minds. And I don\'t know what it\'s hearing. I\'d like to think it\'s hearing better, but I\'m not sure it is.

Brandon Handley 3:00
Not fair enough. I love it when talking to the culture. That\'s a mind shift right there. Right, just kind of right off the bat. And I really, I appreciate that. And in terms of like, evolving, and, and whatnot, where do you where do you think you\'ll see evidence for that? Because that\'s something that\'s been rattling around in my mind recently, is that every culture, every society thinks at the pinnacle of it. So where do you believe you see the evidence of evolution?

Lincoln Stoller 3:37
Well, I think evolution is easier to redefine than define. So I would redefine it as a feedback process where a system tries to optimize itself, I think the best example is a fungus, you know, a fungus or a mold, I think, unfortunately, cultures, humans and otherwise, reach somewhat blindly toward opportunity. And then they get burned. And hopefully, they learned they usually don\'t, that\'s the sad part. And as individuals, I think we do much better a total individual focused guy, you know, really like to the point of anarchy, basically, I think individuals contribute the main force of culture. And then, of course, we\'re immersed in it, you know, it\'s the soup where we\'re boiled in. I think, you know, just as I assume, in fact, most of the listeners would agree with me that we\'re kind of on the edges of culture, or the boundaries if you want to be more, you know, self satisfied about it. The forward boundary, put it that way, and make us all happy. And we might be leading culture, although I\'m not even sure leading and trailing is fair. But the psychedelics the, you know, the old Terence McKenna, I don\'t know he wasn\'t here. his idea, the, you know, the stoned monkey idea. And also there\'s the 100th Monkey idea, which I think could both be debunked fairly, literally, but taken figuratively, you know, the more of us who expand our minds, the more the culture will expand. It\'s whatever it is mind, consciousness, awareness. So I, I think, and this is my whole story about, you know, becoming enlightened and becoming able, it\'s an uphill battle, because you\'re gaining, you know, breadth and depth in the context that lacks that. It could be a personal context or cultural, legal, social, you know, all that stuff. So right now, we\'re expanding, and the listeners are expanding to. I mean, as you said, it was a mind shift. And that\'s what I\'d say, is the most useful mind shift. Whatever problems you\'re having as an individual, are not entirely yours. And whatever advances you make are not entirely yours, either. They\'re shared.

Brandon Handley 6:13
Just so you know, kind of like this. I love the edges of the culture, but as a culture as what was what was young saying?

Lincoln Stoller 6:24
A lot of stuff, what do you

Brandon Handley 6:28
call? What he\'s the, you know, the collective conscious? Yeah, right. Is that? Is that kind of what you\'re talking to?

Lincoln Stoller 6:39
I don\'t know. I think, you know, Jung was almost 100 years ago, I think we\'ve, I think we have to do better than that. But I think it\'s collective unconscious, collective conscious. I don\'t know who speaks for it. I think, you know, sort of like these pseudo pods reach out. You know, I\'m teaching my son who\'s 11 Something about history. And I keep coming back. And we all keep coming back to German fascism. And how insane that was, but it keeps happening. You know, he wasn\'t the last he wasn\'t the first. And before he became our enemy, he was our friend. And, you know, he came from a culture that is our culture. And it was less than 100 years ago, and it\'s scary. So here, we now take psychedelics. And you know, to put it in the most dire framework, we still have a world filled with Hitler\'s and Stalin\'s, but now they\'re called Putin and whatever. And now put those guys on psychedelics. And holy shit. I come a little concerned.

Brandon Handley 7:50
I mean, right. It\'s, I think putting people who have let power kind of already go to their their heads and put them on psychedelics. It\'s be definitely be an interesting trip, to say the least. But um, let\'s talk real quick, though to like, I mean, as you\'re talking about, like edges of culture, leading culture or or trailing it, right? It also just, engines have thrown the words expansion in there, too. It just always makes me think of like the edges of the universe, right. And we\'re kind of writing we are creating, that we are the edge of the universe, right? We are that edge of the culture that\'s continually growing and expanding. And to that end is, is that the mind when you talk about mind expansion? I\'m just kind of curious even what you mean by mind expansion, right? Like, yeah, I could say What\'s that look like to you?

Lincoln Stoller 8:52
I think it is, has to be seen broadly, that there\'s a mind body that, you know, a good aspect of who we are stored in our body, in terms of how we think what we think how we react, what we are alert to it stored in our memory, again, in terms of how we react and associate the things. If you put it all together, that makes a mind. I\'m not entirely reductionist, though I think I sound that way. But I\'m trying to break things into pieces that are that I can swallow. And I fully recognize that some of these pieces don\'t fully disconnect. So like mind and body, you can\'t really tell them apart. They\'re constantly talking to each other and influencing each other. And one of the most effective ways to look at us and mind in general. I mean, there are many, but one that I keep coming back to his intellect versus a motion. Where intellect can be reasonable and rational, deductive inferential kinds of the stuff. And emotion is very different. It\'s almost always holistic and vague and so forth. And our culture doesn\'t still doesn\'t give a lot of respect to emotions. You know, they say, yeah, you can be emotional, a great actor, great presence charismatic, but you\'ve got to translate it into, you know, intellect, logic reason. And that just doesn\'t work, especially in the realm of psychedelics, and in the realm of dreams and trance. You know, sometimes you can get it, but not always.

Brandon Handley 10:44
Yeah, even even in the spiritual space, right? And things spiritual, right? Trying to translate that feeling, the sense of knowing into something that somebody will accept, right, is very challenging. I like the idea of, you know, the intellect versus the emotion. And the other piece where you say, you know, there\'s some of these things don\'t connect the body mind. And it makes me think of build disconnect is what makes me think of how other cultures outside of Western cultures, they don\'t have separate words for body in mind, they don\'t have separate words for heart and mind. Right? It\'s when you get to the Western Western culture that we separate that so we\'ve made some type of separation forcibly, through by accident, by our choice of how we speak. Right, right. So trying to reintegrate that is a challenge. How are you seeing that? You know, what are you doing for your clients, I guess, to to help them get connected to or recognize that they are connected? And that it\'s okay.

Lincoln Stoller 11:56
Well, it\'s a little complicated, because different clients have different barriers, I would say, you know, forgive me for, again, being somewhat reductive, but there are different answers to the question. So, you know, some of the kinds of clients I would characterize, are the confused people who know, they\'re confused. The conflicted people who don\'t know whose problem this is, and are trying to figure it out. And then, you know, there are the people who so monetize their problem. And it manifests as a physical ailment. And they\'re very interesting. And they\'re also difficult, because unless you\'re a doctor, which I\'m not, I\'m dealing with the mind, and I\'m trying to get back at the body back to the body. So what I do with people, I mean, I think the first thing you do is to establish some trust, doesn\'t have to be deep trust doesn\'t have to be you know, whatever, just whatever it is, there\'s a level of trust, you work it to some viable point. Maybe it\'s intellectual, maybe it\'s emotional, cultural, whatever. And then I basically try to get them out of their heads. Because this whole intellectual approach, pretty much you know, people have reached, we\'re good at it. We\'re good at being intellectuals. That\'s the western model. And if progress has stalled, it\'s probably not because of lack of intellectualism. It\'s probably because too much intellectualism, too much, you know, not enough spiritual, emotional, experiential stuff. So I try to get people out of their heads. And you do that by either reminding them of what\'s important that they\'re suppressing, or confusing them to the point where they stop trying to, you know, intellectualize anything.

Brandon Handley 14:04
That\'s like a colon.

Lincoln Stoller 14:07
Yeah, but more directly as a trance. I mean, that\'s what hypnotherapy is about. You take them into a realm where the CO on becomes real. You know, so you do try to get away from even language. So not just poetry, closer to music, or rhythm, or emotion, emotion or body feeling. So getting them into that. That\'s where I find progress. At least for people who are looking for progress. Some people are looking for fun, which is fine. But even if you\'re looking for fun, I think progress can be fun. You know, I\'m not even defining fun is not so easy, either.

Brandon Handley 14:50
Right? Right, right. I think that in when you mentioned that there\'s not enough spiritual, emotional and experiential. Sometimes. I think fun and play are a couple of things that are right are certainly missing and allow for a reconnection to the body get into that flow state. And and when we let loose, right, and quite literally let loose your brain releases releases that tension and whatever else is kind of stored up in there. Yeah, right, you\'re in a totally different space. Yeah, I can, I can see that for sure.

Lincoln Stoller 15:24
So imagine, you get a client, and they have a problem. And they\'re focused on the problem, or they have a diagnosis, and they\'re broken the diagnosis. So how do you get from a diagnosis to fun? You know, and I think that\'s a serious question, because learning doesn\'t go very far. If it\'s not fun, right? I mean, if you have to learn and it hurts every time, should you know that\'s not a great learning environment. So how do you get somebody who has cancer? To get to fun? And you say, that\'s impossible. That\'s ridiculous. But it\'s not exactly if you sort of redefined fun as empowerment, progress, control, hope, you know, things that uplift you. I mean, maybe they don\'t make you laugh. But, you know, a really empowered person could laugh, even in the worst circumstances. Personal maybe that\'s kind of hopeful. But

Brandon Handley 16:21
the the possibility does exist? I think so. Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let\'s talk about like, you know, how did you, you know, how did you get into the psychedelic space of this, this whole thing, right, like, I know that you\'ve got a wide varied past, covers a lot of different ground. But one of the things we\'re gonna chat about today is, again, the kind of the self psychedelics and this both spiritual and mental health aspects.

Lincoln Stoller 16:48
Well, I didn\'t come as a healer. I came into it as an adventurer, I\'d say I came into everything I did as an adventurer. And the thing that differentiates an adventurer is that we are reckless. Because we were looking for adventure. We\'re not looking for answers. We\'re not looking for accolades. We\'re really fed by adventure. So I started as a mountaineer, which is very adventurous. And then I got into physics, which is pretty adventurous, especially if you do it as in a rebellious way, like I did have everybody throw you out of their class, because you asked too many questions. You know, and that that\'s very sobering. At first you think, oh, you know, they think they think I\'m a jerk, do they think I\'m wrong, that I can\'t follow the program. And it takes a long time to realize the benefit of not fitting in, in a field where there\'s progress to be made. Maybe in some fields, like, I don\'t want to, these are fields, I don\'t know anything about dentistry, but welding X, I do know something about welding, you know, structural engineering, maybe those are fields where you don\'t want to be an explorer, or at least, you don\'t want to be held accountable for your mistakes. But in most things, you do have to be held accountable for your mistakes, and you have to be able to make mistakes. You know, a good Explorer is careful, but curious. So my initial explorations and psychedelics were as many in the underground are, you know, you I did not do it recklessly as a teenager, I didn\'t even start doing it in earnest until I was probably close to 40. And I did it through the ceremonial things, you know, mostly Ayahuasca ceremonies and the derivatives of those indigenous things. And some of the spiritual stuff that came out of acelin Like, sensory deprivation and the pasta meditation and stuff like that. So those were explorations.

Brandon Handley 19:12
And yeah, you know, so you you didn\'t, you didn\'t you didn\'t come across it to you know, initially for like, spiritual awakening or any of this other stuff. It\'s just kind of like, Hey, here\'s this give it a shot. Well, you know, what do you think kind of thing? Oh, well, little.

Lincoln Stoller 19:36
No, no, not quite like that. It was more like I want to find out what\'s over there. It was more curiosity than

Brandon Handley 19:43
that. Yeah. What was leading that what were you looking for? Well, that\'s

Lincoln Stoller 19:47
what I didn\'t know. But like all these people were talking about enlightenment and spiritual cosmic consciousness. And I\'m saying, Well, I don\'t know what that is. I I live in a circumscribed you know, Western world where were the questions are, you know, in the back of the textbook? And now you\'re telling me that it\'s, you know, all around me? Well, you know, first thing you you hit you hit on religion, which says, you know, get down on your knees because God is looking at you all the time. And I\'m saying, Well, I don\'t see him or her, or them. And let\'s go find them. You know, why not? You know, it\'s like going into the wilderness, all the animals flee. So what if, you know, the Divine is doing that too. They see you coming? And they say, Oh, God, here\'s another, another, you know, environmentally rapacious, moron. And, and you smile, but the truth is that higher states of consciousness do flee from stupid people, since, you know, they don\'t they don\'t get tangled up with your problems. It\'s like, if you\'re not ready for it, there aren\'t any time to waste. Right? You know, they\'re not going to make the argument that you should behave better, or you should listen more carefully to your heart. You got to be there, and then you\'ll hear it. Yeah. So this was my attitude.

Brandon Handley 21:09
Your attitude was toward the psychedelics. Yeah. To hear us Economics here at Z, you know, and what does it take?

Lincoln Stoller 21:17
Mountaineering was helpful, because you get in situations where you really feel like you got to be on top of a situation that\'s dangerous or out of control, and you got to listen really carefully. And maybe you\'ll hear something, it\'s, it\'s an interesting thing that you will hear, you\'re not going to hear a voice speaking to the wisdom of the universe, you\'re going to hear the crackling of the snow, or the blowing of the wind. And that\'s one source of wisdom. I don\'t know if it\'s in the wind, or it\'s in your acute hearing, more or both. But that was part of it. So for example, you know, I climbed El Cap by a difficult group when I was 17, which was quite young. And, you know, quite an experience you have on the wall for seven days, six days, and you start to become accustomed to a vertical world, and things start to become rote. And, and the sense of twirling around at the end of a rope, like a spider, you know, 4000 feet above the ground, starts to become sort of normal, it\'s still, it\'s still, you know, gets your endorphins going, but you got a job to do, and you do it. And then you get off, and you get back into the normal horizontal world. And it\'s like a, it\'s like, a crushing load. You know, now you\'re in society, and you can feel people looking at you. And thinking, you know, they don\'t know what you\'ve done. They just look at you like a regular person. And you can feel the weight of normality. And it was, in that particular case, somebody gave me up a capsule of mescaline and said, Here, go to a tour around the tourist bus in the valley, Yosemite Valley. And I did and I remember telling somebody, I just claimed that and they said, No, you didn\'t, you know, they couldn\'t conceive of it. And I What can I do? But laugh, you know? Yeah, so this was sort of an I say this not to stand out as odd. But I think when you make movements to open your consciousness, you\'re out of the world, you generally don\'t have anyone to talk to. And it\'s probably best that way. Because if you\'d like sit down at the feet of some master and say, Tell me what the answer, it\'s like, you\'re gonna get some more verbal stuff. That\'s

Brandon Handley 23:43
sure. Well, I mean, I think I think that a lot of the Masters, you know, that we would reference right, you know, any Zen Buddhist, or any of these people, they would all tell you that they have nothing to teach you. Right? That you\'ve already to whatever it is, you\'re looking at you are you know you in Hinduism, like you are that right? So, you know, they

Lincoln Stoller 24:06
they do one thing I don\'t like, which is they tell you to listen to them.

Brandon Handley 24:14
Sure. And suffice to say like, you know, the gist of it is if you go looking for a guru, you\'ll find right yeah. And you find one then you do then you listen to them, right that\'s your path. That doesn\'t have to be your path and they the they\'ll tell you that just as much right you don\'t go out as a guru seaching students so much the students come seeking you right. So I think that there\'s a there\'s a little bit of a little bit of a thing there and again, I think for the most part most spiritual masters are gonna say you don\'t need really anything other than what you\'ve already got. Right? And so you know, you\'re seeking it. it, I guess, in a way, by leveraging some of the psychedelics is that kind of one understand, like, again, you\'re looking for this thing.

Lincoln Stoller 25:08
Right? That\'s how I started. That\'s how I started. Okay, then now we\'re changing sort of the focus in professions and culture and so forth. Can people are coming in?

Brandon Handley 25:20
Yeah. How are you seeing it? I guess in your in your professional space? How where\'s it showing up? I understand it, you know, traditionally, doctors like they shouldn\'t be taking, you know, what it is that they\'re prescribing, which kind of puts them at a disadvantage. Where are you at in this space? What are you seeing? And I think we talked a little bit about the beginning that you feel like we\'re in a rocky state. Yeah. I\'d love to hear more about that. Yeah, let\'s get into it.

Lincoln Stoller 25:53
Well, you know, for a coincidence of language, some of these psychedelics were translated as medicinal medicina. But you know, what a medicina is in a shamanic culture is not what a medicine is in ours, in spite of the similarity of the words, so some of these, I\'m thinking of the ones that are making the news these days. But if we got ketamine, MDMA, somewhat psilocybin, not so much LSD or by Wasco, are presented as medicines or potentially medicines. And then we\'ve got pharmaceutical companies scrambling for patents and derivatives and, and it\'s getting a little unseemly, you know, it\'s starting to sound like money starting to smell like money. And then you\'re looking at professional practice. And, you know, Western medicine has this paradigm of how the practitioner helps the client. And that\'s not at all like what the shaman does. The shaman has a different role in the shamanic society than a doctor does in ours. And not a religious role, either kind of, you know, half spiritual or half spirit. It\'s like I say, a shaman is the kind of guy you would not want your daughter married to. I don\'t think there\'s any exception to that rule. So we\'re not really incorporating shamanic wisdom, which is deep and I think shamanic wisdom is the appropriate wisdom to use to understand psychedelics and Oregon, we\'re not doing that in the medical incorporation. But we are doing like

Brandon Handley 27:50
Lincoln, say that again. So I mean, what does that look like? You know, you believe that we should be doing in the way that a shaman may so expand on how a shaman, may I assist a psychedelic experience?

Lincoln Stoller 28:04
Oh, dear. Well, there\'s many threads to this. And I\'ll take yours just because you asked me to. It would not be the first one I would go on. I would tend to go on what the medicines are doing, what the medicine what the medicinal people are doing. But the shamanic approach. I think it\'s a recognition of the value of chaos and destruction in the kind of Hindu sense. disintegration, reintegration, transformation, Transcendence. The shaman in the cultures I\'m familiar with, is not particularly welcome, in most cases, because they\'re not really allied to any material personal agenda. They live in a semi spiritual world, semi numinous. And they do strange things, sometimes good, not necessarily good to each other or to people and they have a strange sense of humor. So they\'re kind of instruments of chaos. I would say, you know, pretty generally shamans are instruments of chaos. And some of them they, some of them come from an herbal tradition that has healing background or healing agenda. You know, they can do both or something like that. And, you know, if you get involved with a shaman, it\'s like getting involved with a Cheshire Cat, you know, they can just disappear and be left with nothing but a smile. And you don\'t know where they are. Because there\'s basically saying in my understanding that the world is not as we see that there\'s more to it. And the leading influences are in our material world. So if you\'re not in the shamanic world, or the transcendence sphere ritual, you know, world of spirits, you can\'t really make sense others out of the shamans agenda, it\'s not entirely there or here, somewhere in between, they\'re sort of a doorman. Not entirely responsible for you, they open the door, you know, they wave their feathers blow their smoke and give you the thing to drink. And then they dance around and sing, and it\'s, you know, up to you, it\'s up to the spirits to help you not to them, you know, you have to make contacts, you have to be worthy of your own transcendence. Or, you know, I like that in terms of a model that was like, kind of a mountaineering model, you go out there and either learn, or you get your self slapped down. Right. And those are real lessons, but they\'re dangerous. And they\'re hard to appreciate. Because they don\'t obviously make you money, fame. And, you know, get you adulation. And if they do, you know, watch out, because those are, those are your things, not, you know, their things. So that\'s the kind of the shamanic model, in my view is transcendent. It\'s not entirely you can\'t really fit it into a spiritual box, or religious box, or political box or cultural box, it\'s out of the material world. And so if you\'re a spiritual person, it can make sense. Okay.

Brandon Handley 31:31
So, I guess if I had to, kind of self self transcendence with like, an assist, right? Yeah. Yeah. I really, I like how you mentioned, you know, they, they\'re there to kind of help open up the door, they\'re not responsible for you, basically, after you walk through, right? Like, you\'re like, hey, I think I\'ve talked some other people that have had done the Ayahuasca journeys, or something that I\'ve ever done, but it\'s like, you kind of you take the ayahuasca and you kind of hold on to the rails, right? It\'s like, alright, well, this is the x, here it comes. Right, and it\'s gonna, it\'s gonna show you some things that you may or may not be prepared for. But I\'d like

Lincoln Stoller 32:11
to compare it to, in my own experience, parachute jumping, which I only did at once, but I think once was enough, I mean, I\'d love to do it more. But I don\'t think I\'d need nearly as exciting the second time. So the first time you do parachute jumping, you know, you go out the door. And all you have is your belief in how the thing is supposed to work, you know, at some experience and what you\'re supposed to perform, you know, that assume that assume the position and execute these actions, and then control your, your experience. And that\'s sort of like what it\'s supposed to have happen in a psychedelic experience, you go out the door, and you pull the ripcord and, you know, the world will unfold below you. But it can be that you go out the door and the parachute doesn\'t open in the psychedelic experience. Right, you know, and then what are you going to do? You know, I had one experience mountaineering where things went sideways. And I found myself, you know, hurtling down the side of a mountain, out of control. In a direction I wasn\'t supposed to be going. And I was spinning around in the air bouncing. And I think it\'ll probably turn to, you know, be written on my gravestone that the greatest thing I did in my life was I just opened my eyes and enjoyed the experience. Yeah, and I didn\'t get freaked out. And obviously, I survived.

Brandon Handley 33:48
Right. Right. And that\'s, I think that\'s a I think that\'s, that\'s that\'s a great approach. But and I think that we hear a bunch of people express that in different ways, too, right. Some people expressed the I just kind of opened my eyes and experienced it. But then literally, that\'s all that happened, right then did nothing. So what does that look like for you kind of opening your eyes and experiencing life?

Lincoln Stoller 34:17
Well, you know. Part of the answer is it depends what your environment is. So if you\'re in today,

Brandon Handley 34:27
like how did you leave Lincoln? Like, what do you do to experience like, kind of open yourself up and experience life today? What did what did today look like for you?

Lincoln Stoller 34:35
Well, what I\'ve been doing in the last month has been writing a book so I\'d go sort of into the space of communication and expression, which is creative and somewhat disciplined because um, you know, it\'s got to get into a finished format. And bad ice. I\'m with my 11 year old son. So that\'s interesting. In view of the world that I\'m talking about things I don\'t know, you, we talked about history and other sorts of things that adults assume that adults know and kids don\'t have, and it wasn\'t, you know, psychedelic or particularly unexplored. I do have to watch myself because I do tend to go off the rails, I like to be off the rails. Sure, but if you\'re with other people, they often don\'t appreciate it. So as a counselor, I have to be careful because other people need to go off the rails, but it\'s frightening for most people. And part of my job is to help them take off into the rails or out the door, and to apply my, you know, discretion as a guide in their world, to make them feel safer, safe, safer, and exploring their world. So I tend to be I compare myself to the story of Don Quixote. And, you know, his faithful servant, Pancho Sanchez. And I\'m Pancho Sanchez, and their donkey Odie, and I\'m trying to get them to tilt at windmills. Santa, I\'m trying to, you know, get them to see the world like, like Vincent van Gogh, but not cut their hair off? Like he did.

Brandon Handley 36:48
Right? Write that down thing, you know, there\'s certain links I don\'t think you have to go to, in order to achieve achieve that. So, you know, how\'s this showing up? I guess, in your practice, right? Are you? Are you working with others? Through psychedelics? Are you? Is it about primarily to assist yourself in the psychedelic realm? Because the other thing that you\'d mentioned, too, is like you, I don\'t know that you said, you hit it hard, harder, at least once you\'re in your 40s. But like, where? Where\'s it showing up now for you? And how are you leveraging it in your practice? psychedelics?

Lincoln Stoller 37:26
Well, the psychedelics are problematic because they\'re illegal, and they\'re unknown by authorities. The reason I think we\'re heading for trouble, is because there\'s a standard sort of management, dictum of wisdom, which is that you have to have authority with responsibility, you know, if you have the authority to do something, you\'ve got to be responsible for what you decide. And the unsaid third component is you have to be competent. Because if you\'re, you know, incompetent, nothing\'s gonna work out well, even if you do have authority and responsibility. But we do not see those things coming together those three things. So we see government, which has the authority, they\'re not taking the responsibility of doing therapy. And they\'re certainly not competent, because they\'re not therapists. And we have the therapists who are presenting themselves as authorities. And they do not have competence, because no one\'s knows what this territory means. And they\'re trying to put the responsibility on the practitioner, you know, the authorities, which is to say, the Medical Teaching, the institutional training, put the responsibility on the therapist, they\'re trying to teach the therapists how to, well, what does it mean to be responsible? I guess it means, but it means two things, it means your client doesn\'t hurt themselves. And it means your client doesn\'t get traumatized, which is to say doesn\'t feel that they were hurt. But roughly, of course, you\'d also like to say that your client makes progress. But that\'s always kind of a bugaboo in therapy, because progress, it\'s not yours to define. You can like test them. But that\'s not really I don\'t think that\'s fair. If somebody feels they made progress they did. If they didn\'t, then they didn\'t. You can say on some metric, they changed, but I don\'t really buy that that\'s kind of legalistic. So, so we don\'t have these things coming together. And in the everyday we have a new institution offering certification on psychedelic therapy. And it just horrifies me because it\'s still illegal. And you still can\'t learn from doing it. Unless you do in the underground, but you\'re not supposed to do it in the underground. If you\'re certified, you\'re supposed to always stay above ground. We can do it in another country. Free, which seems to be the only real way that most of us have done it. As therapists, we go to Costa Rica or something. Or, you know, wherever we go, or we don\'t talk, we, you know, whatever. But we do it at home. Right? Right. So, you know, that\'s the rockiness of it in order to gain responsibility and, and competence and knowledge. Somebody\'s got to start learning what they\'re doing. Most of the programs that teach therapists and certify them in psychedelic therapy, do not involve ever taking the psychedelic, and how you could gain competence without being there is like being a shaman without ever connecting with the spirits. It\'s like

Brandon Handley 40:48
Lincoln, do you think do you feel like I mean, is that model broken? It sounds

Lincoln Stoller 40:53
like it\'s not there yet. It\'s not even a model. It\'s just a proposal. What? Again,

Brandon Handley 40:59
are Yeah, the proposal, right authority, government, and, you know, authority, responsibility and competency. Whereas if we go and we take a look at the shamanic model, we say, All right, well, who\'s got authority and responsibility, and he\'s competent, but for I think it\'s the outcomes that I think deviate a little bit here. Right, like you\'re saying, you know, there\'s these other things we are, you know, I think you didn\'t mention on this podcast, but I heard another one of your podcasts, and we talked about having a, a port psychedelic experience, and I\'ve had, I\'ve had plenty of them. But that\'s also, you know, that set and setting, to I wouldn\'t say I was traumatized, or theoretically hurt, but I could definitely see somebody looking back at like, if this had been in a clinical situation, I\'d be like, well, that person did this to me. Right. Right. Right, without taking responsibility for myself. Now, if we take a look at it, this kind of Shamanic model, like I\'m response, this is my mind, right? This is what\'s happening with me, and I\'m responsible, you know, owning that responsibility is, I think, a huge part of it. And, and I would say though, even though I had a poor experience, I felt like those were some of my most progressive experiences, right? Like, I mean, those were the things were, man just like coming out of it just unbelievable, right?

Lincoln Stoller 42:23
Well, this this is, this is a, that\'s a new paradigm. I think that\'s a new paradigm that the fact that you could feel terrible, and, and feel injured, and at the same time, think this was the best experience of your life. You know, some people who have had cancer say that? Who\'s, you know, well, here\'s an example, that\'s quite pointed, and quite simple. A client can accuse a therapist of anything, anything at all, they can accuse them in public, it can they can publish it in detail, the therapist cannot say anything at all in defense, because it violates client privilege. So that alone should give a therapist some pause, because some people, you know, part of the psychedelic experience, like you said, involves some unpredictable behavior and experience. And how do you fit that in a insurance policy? You know, because you got to think of that.

Brandon Handley 43:27
Yeah, it\'s, it\'s gonna be really interesting, I think, to see how, you know, it\'s been it\'s been interesting right now to see psychedelics and the progress that they\'ve made what they\'re trying to do with it. But it\'s going to be very interesting to see how it evolves due to the fact that it\'s this it\'s uncontrollable, right? Like, it\'s, it\'s basically something you drop it into the mind map mind expansion, you don\'t know, you have no idea what the outcomes gonna be, you really don\'t?

Lincoln Stoller 43:57
Well, here\'s I want to jump in and say, here\'s my idea. I think people should approach psychedelics through mind expansion and find out exactly what is going to happen when they take off the brakes, or they break through the barrier. But you know, sure. So it\'s like, you know, parachute jumping, first, you jump off a platform onto a mattress, and then you get the feeling, right, you get the feeling or you imagine it right, and you don\'t freak out. Quite, or if you\'re gonna freak out, you do it on the mattress. So, you know, there are other ways of trance and if you\'re serious about doing something like psychedelics, I think this is what I would say. I would say if you\'re serious about having a positive experience or a healing experience, then I would hold you to exploring altered states of consciousness. Without psychedelics, to see just what you find there, what it looks like how, you know, whether you really like it, or what you know, and whether I can help you or control you, or whatever. And if you don\'t want to do that, then I\'m, I think I wouldn\'t work with you.

Brandon Handley 45:18
Now that makes sense. And that makes sense, right? I think that, again, especially with psychedelics, if somebody\'s not willing to put in some of that pre work before the actual adventure, right, that\'s like, you know, keep going back to your, you know, before you do the parachute, and you got to do the parachute practice stuff, right? You got to do the stuff that makes you feel comfortable to pull the cord and know that you\'re gonna go up there. What is, you know, you mentioned, like altered states of consciousness. What are what are some non psychedelic ways to enter into that state that you found?

Lincoln Stoller 45:54
Let\'s say the simplest is like meditation. You know, how good are you at meditation? You? It\'s could be very easy. But let\'s talk about it, you know, that, you know, could you actually sit for an hour? You know? And would you have the patience for that? You know, and what came up. And another is hypnotherapy, right? Go into trance of guided meditation. What happens some people, there\'s quite a variety of of results, some people can be, go into a light trance, some people go into heavy trance, I had a client who came to me. And given the circumstances, I was offering past life regression. And they thought this was ridiculous, and a fraud. And they were gonna play it, and just show me how stupid it was. So we did the kind of protocol and they brought in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. And then they got quite upset because they stopped behaving correctly. And other animals started appearing in their mind that were not part of their Disney narrative. And they didn\'t behave as the animals. And and I was saying, yeah, exactly, that\'s all it is. It\'s just what comes in, you can start any way you want with any prejudice you want. But at some point, you\'re trying to get beyond it into the area where you don\'t know how the characters are supposed to behave, and they start behaving on their own. So that\'s a trance experience. And I\'ve had other people who, you know, they approach what seems to be rape, you know, and then, you know, my, my role is to say, I don\'t think we\'re going to go there. But I think, you know, we\'re just gonna, we\'re just gonna teleport right beyond that experience. Because I don\'t know these people, on the other hand, that I\'ve had clients who felt that they had childhood, sexual sexual abuse. And then the question is, well, just how much do we need to explore? And my answer is only as much as you feel comfortable with. So these are things you can do and let\'s see, you could do well, there\'s not a lot of in between stuff besides hypnotherapy, which I like, you know, there\'s exercise diet fasting meditation. Sure.

Brandon Handley 48:32
I think that works. So Right. I think that works like and I mean, I just asked him for a couple of ideas there, right? If somebody was like, alright, well, maybe I\'m interested, what are some others altered states that I could get into before leveraging or or going all in, right. So I

Lincoln Stoller 48:49
also there\'s, there\'s lower doses not to write well,

Brandon Handley 48:53
you don\'t start off with a tense drip of acid. Right. Like, I just think that that\'s probably a bad idea. Right?

Lincoln Stoller 48:57
I think so. And setting setting right, you are

Brandon Handley 49:02
super important, right? Yeah. Setting setting. Where are you in your headspace? Right. Like, are you really ready is today Good? Did you have if you had a shitty day, I\'d say hey, maybe maybe maybe not today. Okay.

Lincoln Stoller 49:14
And do you have a container that you trust? And you know, you have a sitter? Or do you, you know, that kind of stuff? And are you being pressured? Or are you really feeling that you\'re doing this of your own? recognizance,

Brandon Handley 49:29
right? You know, how would you describe if you could, you know, the first kind of go round, right? What would somebody how would you explain that somebody\'s psychedelic experience?

Lincoln Stoller 49:44
I think I\'d Well, it depends whether you\'re asking me whether I just have to state it as a story or whether I can engage them because my my inclination would be to talk about dreaming and to try to get them to Recall dreaming experiences, and to get them to be engaged in participating in their dreaming experiences. So I think that, that\'s actually a difficult thing to do, it\'s certainly easier to take a pill to become involved in your dreaming means you have to have some control of your sleep. And then you have to learn how your intentions affect your dreams. And then ultimately, to some extent, you may become lucid in a dream. And then I think you have something to talk about, like, the experience, the psychedelic experience can be like a dream experience. But more or less, it can be more or less controlled. But it\'s the same sort of feeling that this is real, and I am real, but this doesn\'t make sense. Right? And often, I don\'t remember either where, who I was, where I was, or what\'s going on. And, you know, if a monster comes up in that situation, you can be really stressed out. You know, at the same time, if something like an angel comes up, you can be really inspired. Right, but that would be how I talked about it, like, start.

Brandon Handley 51:20
I like it, I like it, right? So a little bit a little bit, kind of like, you know, if you can think about lucid dreaming, and being in a dream state, similar similar phases, I would say. And I guess I\'m using the word phase and like, you know, kind of material and bodily fees, mind states, okay. Well, hey, we\'re at a spot Lincoln, where I usually like to ask a couple different questions. If you\'re good for it. Yeah. Because basically, Look, man, I look at this podcast a little bit like spiritual speed dating, right? You know, you\'re gonna be on here, somebody else is tuned in and they\'re like, well, it is called spiritual dove. They\'re looking for their next hit. They\'re looking for the next person to follow, be with and learn from for a little bit. And what can it could be you man, could be you.

Lincoln Stoller 52:08
Well, like I\'m saying, I\'m talking to the culture, part of part of me is just sorry for the culture. That\'s it? Well, let

Brandon Handley 52:15
me ask you a couple of questions here. And I\'m gonna call you spiritual basketball. Number one. How does one obtain true peace?

Lincoln Stoller 52:27
Damn. I think by not looking for it. I don\'t think it\'s, it\'s like, how do you get rich? You know? What do you go out trying to make money? No, you know, you, peace is redefined. Like rich, like wealth is redefined. So I think you look for your power, and you look for your opportunity. And you have a commitment to yourself. And in that combination, you find peace. And if you combine those things, and you don\'t find peace, then I think you\'ve got a problem of the combination. Not a lack of opportunity, a

Brandon Handley 53:07
little bit like baking a cake, you gotta get the ingredients, right, and the mixtures gotta go on, right? And it\'s kind of gotta gotta go in a certain order. You also said that this is you brought it up earlier to like, if you go chasing it, it becomes elusive.

Lincoln Stoller 53:22
It does. But you know, another thing I harp on is, you got to make mistakes. And they\'ve got to be okay. And maybe even as we said before, fun. Yeah, I mean, some of my greatest, most fun experiences have been wind surfing, when I\'ve wiped out, right wipe outs can be really fun. You know, losing control can be hysterical. And, you know, people are adventure seekers, I think people who are taking psychedelics unless they\'re, they think they\'ve been promised something, which is probably a bad idea. Have to have a sense of adventure and willingness to yours. It\'s very mythological. Like, if, if you read, like, I\'m reading to my son, he\'s 11. So here, I\'ve got this thing, some of these fantasy books that have monsters and angels and good and bad guys. And you imagine yourself that it\'s not a fantasy, that\'s really the dream you\'re gonna have, you know, demons, guides. Immortality, hell. If you can navigate that, it\'s probably going to feel real, something like that. It\'s going to feel real. I forgot what your question was, but that was my answer.

Brandon Handley 54:48
And so that\'s it was a What was the question? How does one obtain true peace, right? So let\'s see. What is uh, you know, she\'s, you probably deal with A number of depressed people, I don\'t know, why are so many people depressed? Well, I

Lincoln Stoller 55:06
don\'t know, I\'m the right one to answer. Of course, I\'m not the right one to answer any of these things. But I would guess that it\'s confusion and struggle and change. I would say the culture is undergoing change. And we as agents of it, are lacking in what we\'re being directed to do what we\'re being rewarded for doing. change agents. I mean, they say don\'t shoot the messenger, we always shoot the messenger. And were the messengers. That\'s the, that\'s kind of depressing. So I mean, get over it, you know,

Brandon Handley 55:44
you signed up to get shot. Well, Lincoln, really appreciate you being on here today. You\'ve got such a vast, vast wealth of knowledge and experiences. I know we\'ve barely touched on it, where can people come and find out a little bit more about what you have to offer?

Lincoln Stoller 56:01
Go to my website at mind, strength balanced.com. All you know, no separations all run together mind strength balanced.com. And sign up for the, you know, the blog. And it\'s free, it\'s monthly. And if you want it weekly, you pay a small amount, and you get weekly. And then their books and there\'s new books coming out. And they\'re linked on the website. And I I\'ll talk to anybody for half an hour for nothing. B call the number and give them direction.

Brandon Handley 56:32
Nice. Bill, fantastic. I think that\'s a that\'s a great, great way to be, you know, offering that time you know, it\'s the peep. Some people aren\'t willing to offer that kind of time at all. I know that I\'ve reached out to some people and I\'ve had to pay for the time just to have a conversation right just to see if the conversation was worth having. But hey, everybody, everybody dictates how they want to live their own life. And you\'re you\'re doing it to be of service. So Lincoln, thank you again for for your time here today, reaching out and

Lincoln Stoller 57:02
you\'re welcome, Brandon. It\'s been great. Thanks a lot for the opportunity.

Intro Guy 57:08
Really hope you enjoyed this episode of the spiritual dove podcast. Stay connected with us directly through spiritual dove.co. You can also join the discussion on Facebook, spiritual and Instagram and spiritual underscore Joe. If you would like to speak with us, send us an email there Brandon at spiritual dove.co And as always, thank you for cultivating your mindset and creating a better reality. This includes the most thought provoking part of your day. Don\'t forget to like and subscribe to stay fully up to date. Until next time, be kind to yourself and trust your intuition.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai