Antigone Episode #2 - Tragedy, Honor, Wisdom And The End Of All Things
b'
Antigone Episode #2 - Tragedy, Honor, Wisdom And The End Of All Things
\\xa0
2Hi, I\\u2019m Christy Shriver.
\\xa0
And I\\u2019m Garry Shriver and this is the how to love lit podcast.\\xa0 We are working our way through Sophocles\\u2019 greatest hits!!\\xa0 Of all the plays he wrote, as we discussed last week, we only have seven (which I guess isn\\u2019t that surprising since they were written in the 400\\u2019s bc)- but of those his Oedipus trilogy is by far the most popular- and of those three- Oedipus Rex is the most popular of those.
\\xa0
I\\u2019m excited to talk about his second most popular, Antigone, which is actually the first one he wrote- mostly because it\\u2019s about a brave woman- which is super surprising.\\xa0 You don\\u2019t expect to see strong females in a lot of classical literature written by men and especially literature from the ancient- in fact, off the top of my head, I can\\u2019t think of another one, although maybe there is- in most stories a woman hero is a woman who is self-sacrificing, like Hecaba, \\xa0but she\\u2019s not really a strong protagonist- and really this should be surprising- in the ancient world\\xa0 women were literally property- they were viewed legally as such and they viewed themselves as such- which actually comes out in this play.\\xa0 But, Antigone, the character- does NOT consider herself property- good for her and good for Sophocles for creating this character- although I think most scholars will tell you that like the story of Oedipus he is retelling a well-known story and there\\u2019s a couple of different versions floating around some are quite complicated and have her running away and all kinds of things- but I think she hangs herself in all of them.\\xa0 \\xa0
\\xa0
Well, \\xa0The Oedipus/ antigone story, as you know from the last three podcasts, really starts with Oedipus\\u2019 birth to his parents Jocasta and Laius.- and we probably have should have mentioned this too- even though the whole I married my mom problem is a real thing- don\\u2019t let the age gap confuse you.\\xa0 In the ancient world, old men often married really young girls- so it was probably true that Laius and Jocasta were farther apart in age than Oedipus and Jocasta- but age not withstanding- neither Oedipus nor Jocasta take it will well when they realize what he has done in marrying his mother and murdering his father.\\xa0 \\xa0\\xa0Jocasta kills herself first because she figures it out first, and When Oedipus Rex \\xa0figures out what happened and in an outburst of unrestrained rage, grief, agony, \\xa0and what other array of emotions one would feel upon such a revelation, he gets Jocasta\\u2019s dress pins and dramatically, passionately and\\xa0 pokes his eyes out leaving quite literally a bloody mess.\\xa0 At the end of that play, after this revelation, Oedipus makes a deal with Creon which actually will be the impetus for this play.\\xa0 He is going to promise never to come back to Thebes if Creon will take care of his children,.\\xa0 He\\u2019s not worried about his sons, but he\\u2019s particularly worried about Ismene and Antigone- again them being \\xa0tainted goods at this point.\\xa0 Creon agrees and is left as Regent or surrogate ruler of Thebes until the boys are old enough to rule
\\xa0
I didn\\u2019t really think about this when we ended the play, but I guess I should have.\\xa0 I just assumed that Creon would be king since that\\u2019s where we end it.\\xa0 But obviously, that\\u2019s not the case.\\xa0 The crown goes to oedipus\\u2019 two sons- Polyneices and Eteoclyes.\\xa0
\\xa0
Well, they are too young to rule at first, but Creon, it appears, brokers this deal that there were two of them that they would take turns a year at a time- one would rule for a year and then would switch out and the other would rule for a year and so forth and Eteocles would go first.
\\xa0
Let me just interject, that every mother in the room knows that deal is not going to work.\\xa0 It doesn\\u2019t even work with toys.\\xa0 Have you ever done the move where one kid is going to get the cellphone to play games for two minutes and after two minutes you\\u2019re going to switch out?\\xa0 That plan always has the same outcome- crying.
\\xa0
And that\\u2019s about how it worked out in this case.\\xa0 The elder brother Eteocles refuses to resign the kingship to Polyneices at the end of the first year of the Royal Condominium. A civil war breaks out, with Polyneices trying to recruit an army from Argos.
\\xa0
\\xa0
That actually is a story in a totally other play by Aschyles, but it does get us into the SECOND play of the Oedipus series, Oedipus at Colonnus that Sophocles probably didn\\u2019t even write until he was in his late 80s or maybe even 90s. it wasn\\u2019t even performed until after his death.\\xa0 Some think its his most reflective of the three, but I won\\u2019t speak to that.\\xa0 I think they are all just so very different in what they are going for.\\xa0 Antigone being the most political and Colonnus being the most personally reflective, if you want to think of it like that.\\xa0 Anyway, back to the story- in this play, the one we\\u2019re NOT reading.\\xa0 All these years, howevery many there were, Oedipus has been wandering aimlessly around Greece.\\xa0 He comes to this town called Colunus, ironically where Sophocles is actually from, and the king there a guy named King Theseus gives him hospitality.\\xa0 Antigone, when she is old enough to be out on her own, actually goes there and takes care of her aging father.\\xa0
\\xa0
Meanwhile\\u2026as they say\\u2026back in the war\\u2026there is yet another prophecy- these dang prophecies.\\xa0 Apollo reveals that whoever possesses the person of Oedipus is fated to win the war at Thebes.\\xa0 So now, the two sons, who didn\\u2019t get a rats booty about their dad suddenly are in a hunt to kidnap him.\\xa0 Ismene is going to show up in Colonnus to tell Antigone and Oedipus what is happening.\\xa0 She also mentions that word is that the city where Oedipus dies is going to have good luck, so they may be coming for him. Creon, who is on team Eteocles goes to Colonus to try to kidnap Oedipus.\\xa0 King Theseus, however, is protecting Oedipus, and puts an end of that- but Creon, so as not to go away empty-handed, kidnaps Ismene and Antigone.\\xa0 King Theseus goes and gets the girls.\\xa0 But at this point Oedipus, angry that his sons for being so self-involved and callous, because if you think about it- look how many people are dying over this- never mind the personal injury to himself and their sisters- he curses them.\\xa0 Polyneices who had come to Colonus too to get Oedipus\\u2019 support sees his plan was probably a fail, understands that this curse he just got from his father may be a big deal and asks his sisters to be sure to bury him.\\xa0 Thunder and lightening happen, Oedipus has his last moment on earth- the only one with him at his death is Theseus- and that is by design- so that the location of his death will be a total secret- because remember there\\u2019s that promise of luck\\u2026and hence the end of Oedipus\\u2026but maybe not- it seems the gods find him worthy because of all the suffering he has endured and make him a god- ultimate irony- and back to the last line and moral lesson of Oedipus- you never know if you had a good life until the very very end.\\xa0\\xa0
\\xa0
Wow- what a life.\\xa0 Poor guy!\\xa0 Anyway, after his passing, Antigone goes back to Thebes, presumably to stop the madness between the brothers\\u2026to avail\\u2026 they go and kill each other in battle\\u2026and this is where our play today begins.\\xa0 Now remember, its still a Greek play with all the conventions of Greek plays that we discussed in episode one.\\xa0 There are still in an amphitheater.\\xa0 They are still wearing masks.\\xa0 There will never be more than three people on the stage at the same time, and of course, our favorite- the musical interludes.\\xa0 We will be blessed every so often with an interruption of the plot with the musical interludes.\\xa0
\\xa0
So, we shall start with the prologue- and in this prologue we will meet the two sisters, Oedipus\\u2019 daughters, and they are set up at the very beginning to be foils.\\xa0 Foils are two characters that contrast with each other and the contrast is supposed to be very obvious.\\xa0 We see this a lot in Shakespeare- if you remember in Julius Caesar, Brutus and Anthony were foils.\\xa0 Brutus was a partyer, an athelete, very popular and kind of a dumb jock- at least at that was his reputation.\\xa0 Brutus was a nerd, bookish, didn\\u2019t like sports, but theoretically an eloquent orator.\\xa0 Well we are going to see this in this play- Antigone is brave, head strong and an independent thinker.\\xa0 Ismene is much more fearful, timid, a conformist and really understands her role as a woman.\\xa0 And this is what comes out.
\\xa0
Read- \\xa0Will you read the prologue with me\\u2026.Who do you want to be?
\\xa0
Read pages 693-695
\\xa0
And we see that have set up the primary moral and political conflict- the most obvious thematic, although not the only and maybe not the most important- thematic problem of the text- the idea of higher law.\\xa0 Garry from a political sense- what can you tell us about this.
\\xa0
Of course- it\\u2019s the basic problem of government that has plagued all of time and the conflict that we will never solve perfectly.\\xa0 The idea of just government and what to do with an unjust government.\\xa0 If the world is working in a good and peaceful and ideal way- the person in charge is going to make good laws that are fair and preserve a society that treats everyone equally- where the good people rise to the top and the bad people sink.\\xa0 But, a society like this is impossible to pull off because of the exact problem Antigone is going to notice.\\xa0 The people in charge do NOT always do the right thing.\\xa0 They do NOT always act fairly, at least in your eyes; and they do NOT always act in the public good.\\xa0 And this we are going to see illustrated in this verdict of Creon.\\xa0 According to that culture, burying the dead was something that superceded human conflict.\\xa0 You were subjected to the laws of mankind until you were dead, but after you were dead, you were NOT subjected to the laws of mankind.\\xa0 So, in this case, this is what we have- Creon picked the side of Eteocles, the younger son- for whatever reason.\\xa0 We really don\\u2019t know, at least not in this play, maybe the Greek scholars do, but in this play we don\\u2019t know if he was the better brother- if he had a reasonable reason for not giving up the throne- for Sophocles- and we can assume for the Greeks- that didn\\u2019t matter.\\xa0 Whatever the reason, there was a war- men died- one side won- and their victory entailed all the spoils of war on earth\\u2026but not beyond that.\\xa0 The other side of the grave was the jurisdiction of the gods.\\xa0 You don\\u2019t get to interfere with what happened on that side of the grave.\\xa0 The Greeks considered the burial of the dead one of their most sacred duties.\\xa0 The psyche or spirit left the body upon death, and the burial traditions that surrounded the physical body amounted to respecting not just human dignity but respect for the gods who ruled both the underworld and the upper world.\\xa0 In fact, if you saw a dead body on the side of the road, you were supposed to go over and throw a handful of dust on it= that was enough to pay respects to the spirit who\\u2019s body could not find rest without that as well as the gods.\\xa0 In fact, they went so far as if you are at war- and if a general did NOT give the men even the enemies time to bury their dead- this was considered a capital offense.\\xa0 \\xa0\\xa0Its also true, that women played a tremendously important role in burial.\\xa0 They were chiefly responsible for all the aspects of the proper and very delineated rituals.
\\xa0
So basically, what you are saying, is that there is no conceivable way that what Creon did could be interpreted by any Greek as a reasonable law.
\\xa0
Absolutely not.\\xa0 When he said that Polyneices body would not be buried, he was flying in the face of tradition, religion and even legal precedent.\\xa0 This was an obvious case of personal anger and rage interfering with professional duties.\\xa0 He was mad at Polyneices, he was not regent, and he was going to use his temporal authority to punish Polyneices after death- and this may I say is obviously offensive to the gods.\\xa0 No way around it.\\xa0
\\xa0
And let me point out that Creion has been king of all of five minutes.\\xa0 Eteocles had been ruler.\\xa0 Creon was only the regent until the boys were of age.\\xa0 And let me say that most myths will tell you that Polyneices had a son, so Creon was never going to be king long term, even after Polyneices death- the most he could be was regent again until Polyneices son grew up.\\xa0 So, here\\u2019s the conflict- Antigone wants to go over Creon\\u2019s head- she\\u2019s going to appeal to what we now call higher law.\\xa0 She\\u2019s going to make the moral assessment that man\\u2019s law is not the final moral authority.\\xa0 God\\u2019s law is the higher moral authority and in those moments when Gods law and mans law conflict, I have not only the right but the moral obligation to ignore man\\u2019s law.
\\xa0
That\\u2019s it exactly, and that\\u2019s a conversation we\\u2019ve had in our own modern political context.\\xa0 Dr. king made the case more eloquently than almost any one in the letter he famously wrote from the Birmingham jail.\\xa0 He says, \\u201cThere are two types of laws: just and unjust.\\xa0 I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws.\\xa0 One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.\\u201d\\xa0 He quotes St. Augustine so far as to say that \\u201cAn unjust law is no law at all.\\u201d\\xa0 And of course he goes on to eloquently give various examples from all times in history reminding his readers that, \\u201cEverything Adolph Hitler did in Germany was legal and everything the Hungarian Freedom fighters did in Hungary was illegal.\\xa0 It was illegal to aid and comfort a Jew in hitler\\u2019s Germany, and then he says, \\u201ceven so, I am sure that had I lived in germany at that time, I would have aided and comforted my Jewish brothers.\\u201d
\\xa0
Funny you should bring up Hitler, there was this guy named Jean Anouiilh who lived in France during the occupation of France by the Nazis.\\xa0 During the way, he presented his own version of Antigone.\\xa0 It\\u2019s actually a very cool. Movie and you can see it on Youtube.\\xa0 All the charactesr wore modern military uniforms, they all smoked cigarettes, they were modern clothes and carried guns.\\xa0 However, the point of the play was to be subversive.\\xa0 He was trying to call out those people in France who were collaborasting with the nazis on the grounds that it was the legal thing to do.\\xa0\\xa0 After the war in 1949, it premiered in London and Lawrence Olivier played the Chorus, which was actually the name of the narrator, and vivien Leigh (like from Gone with the Wind) played Antigone.\\xa0 It\\u2019s truly very cool.\\xa0\\xa0 I actually like it much better, if I have to be honest.
\\xa0
And there is the age-old conflict.\\xa0 What do I do?\\xa0 It\\u2019s awful to be in the position of the Hungarian freedom fighter, of the French citizen in Nazi controlled Germany or in this case, the sister of the man the ruler told not to bury on pains of death.\\xa0 So what do you do?\\xa0 Especially if you promised your brother, you\\u2019d bury him.\\xa0
\\xa0
Well, for Ismene, there wasn\\u2019t a question.\\xa0 She doenst even think about it.\\xa0 She clearly says- what are you talking about, \\u201cWe are only women\\u2019.\\xa0 We\\u2019property- we don\\u2019t get to make decisions. We have no agency.\\xa0 It\\u2019s not our responsibility.\\xa0 Were off the hook by virtue of our sex and place in society.\\xa0 And this is a reasonable position.\\xa0 If I don\\u2019t get to decide anything, than it\\u2019s not my fault when things go poorly.\\xa0
\\xa0
But we see here, something that we saw in Oedipus as well- Sophocles, and I may say, the Greeks really admire those who take responsibility- even when they could arguable shirk it.\\xa0 Antigone responds with- okay- do what you have to do.\\xa0
\\xa0
True- but I must say, there is a little bit here that seems not as altruistic as it might at first pass.\\xa0 She is looking beyond death to the underworld, and basically appears to be thinking- we\\u2019re going to die eventually, and when we get down there- I may have to answer for some of this crap.\\xa0 She even concludes by telling Ismene that the dead will be hating her- and she ends by saying this I am more afraid of death without honor than death at all\\u2026which is interesting and very Greek.\\xa0 We don\\u2019t think like that anymore, but it\\u2019s a real thing.\\xa0 I don\\u2019t want my memory to be dishonorable.\\xa0 I don\\u2019t want my life after death to be dishonorable.\\xa0
\\xa0
After that emotional and heated exchange we are going to get the first choral ode or parados, if you\\u2019re interested in the Greek word for it.\\xa0 And in this case, the chorus will be chanting these lines as they enter the stage.\\xa0 The chorus talks about the war between the brothers, it sets the stage really, but ends with optimism- the war\\u2019s over- so lets have peace.\\xa0 And on that ironic ode, remember, all the Greek plays are about some irony, Creon is going to come in with his decree.\\xa0 He is the NEW king.\\xa0 The battle is over.\\xa0 And this is basically his very first decree.\\xa0 He compares Thebes to a ship ( a metaphor you\\u2019ll recognize if you listened to the Oedipus podcasts, that play opened the same way).\\xa0 Hes saying the ship has come to harbor and it\\u2019s ready for safety.\\xa0 Then he\\u2019s going to talk about the need to have friendship and the need for loyality..and then\\u2026he puts his foot in his mouth, digs his own grave..pumupmpump\\u2026allows his hubris to get the best of him\\u2026if you want to think about it in Greek terms.\\xa0 Read lines 35-50. (page 701)
\\xa0
I\\u2019m kind of glad you bring that word up, because one question I think reasonable people are going to have if they read this play and know anything about Greek theater is that it has to have a tragic hero- so who\\u2019s the tragic hero int his play and what is their tragic flaw?
\\xa0
Good question= obviously people do argue about that, but I\\u2019m just going to tell you my opinion and pretend it\\u2019s authoritative truth.\\xa0 Antigone is the tragic hero, and I\\u2019ll defend my thinking on this next week, for starters- the title is named after her- but most importantly we have pathos for her- we feel fear and pity for her- we can identify with her- and if you remember, according to Aristotle, that\\u2019s what tragedy is going for.\\xa0 We can fear that it could be us and we can pity that she doesn\\u2019t deserve what she gets.\\xa0 Now that is not to say Creon is not tragic.\\xa0 He definitely is.\\xa0 But I don\\u2019t think he\\u2019s very heroic.\\xa0 I don\\u2019t feel myself feeling all that bad for him when things go so so poorly for him at the end.\\xa0 In some sense, you are led to feel..well, you had it coming, you dumb greedy arrogant son of a gun..what did you think was going to happen.\\xa0 And being dumb is one of his big problems.\\xa0 But I would also argue having a big ego is probably the larger and more lethal of the problems.\\xa0 Why did he take it so personally that Polyneices attacked the city?\\xa0 It wasn\\u2019t his kingdom?\\xa0 Of courxe, he\\u2019d raised the boys, but it wasn\\u2019t his fight, really.\\xa0 Was he mad that Polyneices didn\\u2019t fall in line like he wanted him to? I really don\\u2019t know, but this language seems very arrogant, and he seems arrogant in all of his lines during the entire play.
\\xa0
\\xa0Well, I know we can\\u2019t judge ancient dialogue by modern standards, and they were wearing masks and speaking loudly and concisely before large crowds, so there\\u2019s that dynamic, but his lines are aggressive.
\\xa0
They ARE aggressive, I think as well.\\xa0 \\u2018This is my command\\u201d- and it\\u2019s going to get more so.\\xa0
\\xa0
When the sentry comes in, he\\u2019s scared out of his mind as he\\u2019s got to tell Creon something Creon doesn\\u2019t want to hear- and that is that somebody, although they don\\u2019t know who has buried Polyneices.
\\xa0
\\xa0He makes sure Creon knows it wasn\\u2019t him.\\xa0 It\\u2019s a little funny.
\\xa0
I think so too, and I wonder if the sentry isn\\u2019t a little comic relief the audience since this play is sooooo heavy.\\xa0 \\u201cthe dead man- polyneices- out there- someone- new dust on the slimy flesh!\\u2019\\u2026someone has give it burial that way, and gone\\u2026. And we learn that Antigone didn\\u2019t dig a six foot hole and dump the body.\\xa0 She just did some sort of ritual.\\xa0 The sentry describes it as a ghosts peace.
\\xa0
Of course, this whole time Creon is getting angrier and angrier, and the sentry doesn\\u2019t notice until he totally explodes.\\xa0 \\u201cSTOP!\\u201d he calls him a doddering wreck.\\xa0 He calls him crazy.\\xa0 He says, \\u201cIs it your senile opinion that the gods love to honor bad men?\\u201d\\xa0 Of course, I think that\\u2019s irony because the audience has to ask- who\\u2019s the bad man?\\xa0 And then what I find strange, but not strange, is that Creon then seems to hijack Polyneices burial.\\xa0 He brings up money and anarchy.\\xa0 He makes the case that someone is bribing a guard to bury Polyneices.\\xa0 Now, for the longest time, this made no sense to me- I kept asking myself- why would anyone bribe a guard to buy Polyneices?\\xa0 The only person that would benefit from his burial is himself and he\\u2019s dead.\\xa0 Then it occurred to me- Creon is paranoid- that\\u2019s his problem.\\xa0 He\\u2019s been a king for one day and he\\u2019s already worried someone is going to come after him.\\xa0
\\xa0
It seems that even the dumb sentry is confused by all of this.\\xa0 He even tries to make a comment to the king to the gist of- I don\\u2019t understand how this hurts you.\\xa0
\\xa0
To which Creon loses his mind again and runs him out.\\xa0 The sentry runs out of the room and the last thing he says is \\u201cI am safe!\\u201d Meaning- hallelujah I got out of there with my head still attached to my body- or however ancient Greeks \\u201cshot the messanger\\u201d punpunpun to mix metaphors!!
\\xa0
Of course that will take us to the second choral ode- which is a nice place for us to end for the day.\\xa0 In general choral odes are, of course, the chorus\\u2019 response to what has just happened.\\xa0 And in this case, it\\u2019s a big enigmatic- the chorus talks about how amazing man is compared to other animals, but it ends with the observation that there are forces when it comes to man that really are unexplainable- fate seems to work both good and evil.\\xa0 When the laws of the universe are kept, things go well, when they are not- things go awry.\\xa0 Which leaves us with the question/. Who are they talking about Crewon or Antnigone- who is breaking the laws?\\xa0 Only the audience is left to sort this out- because in dramatically ironic fashion- we\\u2019re the only ones that knows who\\u2019s doing what!!!
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
'