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b'Allan and Darren welcome Linda Jakobson to the podcast. Linda is a leading China expert, and a vital voice in Australia\\u2019s own China debate. The conversation spans almost 100 minutes and will be released in two parts. At a time when the bilateral relationship is at a fresh low, this double episode offers genuine substance and depth on how one should understand China, diagnose the deterioration in Australia-China relations, and chart a pathway forward.\\nLinda is the founding director (and currently deputy chair) of the not-for-profit China Matters, an independent Australian policy institute (Allan sits on its Board of Directors). Linda lived and worked for over 20 years in China, including as the Beijing-based Director of the China and Global Security Programme at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI). She moved to Australia in 2011 to serve as Program Director (East Asia) at the Lowy Institute, and in 2015 she founded China Matters and was its first CEO until 2019.\\nThe focus in Part 1 is China itself. However, the conversation begins with Linda\\u2019s own personal story. Being Finnish, Allan wonders what Finland\\u2019s experience neighbouring a major power can teach Australia, while Darren asks whether Linda sees similarities between Finland\\u2019s approach and strategies in the region \\u2013 are there \\u201cFinlands\\u201d in Asia?\\nTurning to China itself, how has Linda\\u2019s understanding of China changed? And who is \\u201cChina\\u201d when asking this question? Linda answers the question from different perspectives. Is China exceptional in what it wants?\\nThe conversation turns to domestic politics. What is the range of views inside the country on the direction China is taking? To what extent is there pushback against Xi Jinping\\u2019s approach, and what could be the mechanisms through which change comes? How big is China\\u2019s political elite, anyway? And how can observers even answer these questions, given the increasingly closed nature of the Chinese system. Is \\u201cPekingology\\u201d going to resemble Kremlinology?\\nStay tuned for Part 2 of the conversation!\\nAs always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod [at] gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj\\nWe thank AIIA intern Dominique Yap for help with research and audio editing, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.\\nRelevant links\\nLinda\\u2019s biography: http://lindajakobson.com/?page_id=74\\nLinda Jakobson, \\u201cWhat does China want? Xi Jinping and the path to greatness\\u201d, Australian Foreign Affairs, Issue 1, 18 Oct 2017:\\xa0 https://chinamatters.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/What-does-China-want-Linda-Jakobson-Australian-Foreign-Affairs-Issue-1.pdf\\nNatasha Kassam and Darren Lim, \\u201cHow China is remaking the world in its vision\\u201d. Extract from chapter in Australian Foreign Affairs,\\xa0The Conversation, 22 Feb 2021:\\nhttps://theconversation.com/how-china-is-remaking-the-world-in-its-vision-155377\\nMelissa Conley Tyler and Julian Dusting, \\u201cWhat should Australia do about\\u2026its foreign interference and espionage laws?\\u201d China Matters Explores, May 2021: https://chinamatters.org.au/policy-brief/policy-brief-may-2021/\\nNick Bisley, \\u201cChina drops the mask on its global ambition\\u201d, The Lowy Interpreter, 22 Apr 2021: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/china-drops-mask-its-global-ambition\\nMax Suich, \\u201cChina confrontation: What were we thinking?\\u201d\\xa0Australian Financial Review, 28 May 2021,\\xa0https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/china-confrontation-what-were-we-thinking-20210429-p57njs\\nMax Suich, \\u201cHow Australia got badly out in front on China,\\u201d Australian Financial Review, 27 May 2021,\\xa0https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/how-australia-got-badly-out-in-front-on-china-20210428-p57n8x\\nVictor Shih and Young Yang, \\u201cThe Make-up of the CCP Elite\\u201d, China Data Lab, 19 May 2021: chinadatalab.ucsd.edu/viz-blog/the-makeup-of-the-ccp-elite/'