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Published: Oct. 7, 2019, 7 a.m.

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In this episode Neil and Ian discuss asbestos reinspection intervals. When should asbestos reinspections be undertaken, who should undertake them and what should they include.

Transcript:

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Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Welcome to the Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I\\u2019m Ian Stone.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 I\\u2019m Neil Munro.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 So today we are talking about Asbestos re-inspections. \\xa0

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yes, what is that asbestos re-inspection? Different from a survey.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Well\\u2026 Exactly that, that\\u2019s what I was going to start with.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 So\\u2026 and usually that follow on from sort of a survey etcetera, so using base information, so you should really have an existing asbestos register.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Usually that\\u2019s from a management survey.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, could have survey information added to it. So it is basically taking the existing asbestos information.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 So you know what it is, where it is, the condition that\\u2019s in and then it is re-inspecting that so a visual check, go into the location that it\\u2019s in, and looking at the material and comparing it to what data you\\u2019ve got, what the photo previously looked like making sure there is no deterioration, there is no cracks, there is no signs of deterioration. You are checking for water leaks, all sorts of stuff. Basically anything that could affect that material in its location.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 And it is part of that process you\\u2019d be updating the material risk assessment. So the material risk assessment looks at how easily or how readily that asbestos material will release asbestos fiber should it be damaged. And it looks at the product type so what asbestos product it is. It looks at the condition so whether it is in a good condition or whether it is damaged. It will also look at the surface treatment so whether it is sealed, or unsealed, or it could self sealed. And It will also look at taking to account what asbestos fiber has been identified in them too. So that\\u2019s probably the most important is updating that information, that assessment because then that falls in and follows in with your priority risk assessment and then your overall risk on how you manage that material.\\xa0 \\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 If you are going to re-inspect and last year the asbestos insulating board ceiling was in a lovely condition. It was all painted and it was all fine. This year you have re-inspection undertaken and for some reason, I don\\u2019t know, weathering or water leak because the paint is now flaking off.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Chipped it, damaged it.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, exactly, anything that could affect it then that is kind of the first call of the material has changed. So the risk assessment has changed so it might go from a medium risk up into the high risk category. But also with that like you say, it is the priority risk assessment. That\\u2019s a very important one to check when you are doing the re-inspection because you could have something that\\u2019s low risk, or say medium or high risk but it is in a very low risk area. However, in the course of the last 12 months that use of that area has changed. I\\u2019ve seen that before in school halls where you got a store covered and they store hockey sticks in there, so the hockey sticks come out once a year for one week and that\\u2019s the only time they play hockey. However, in the last 12 months they\\u2019ve cleared all that out, put it somewhere else and now that is the caretaker store, and they are in there at all day every day. Or they are in there that now becomes their material store so the risk of damaging stuff when they are dragging equipment and getting it out, it\\u2019s kind of increases the risk of any asbestos being damaged in that area.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah. So the golden question and the question we get asked quite a lot, and it is a bit of a gray area when it comes to putting some specific down. So that is when and how often should these re-inspections be undertaken?

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, and from an industry standpoint it is kind of always been 12 months.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, which I think is probably the benchmark.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 A good minimum.\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 \\xa0\\xa0

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, the benchmark for if you are going to do something set in 12 monthly inspections is a good place to start.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, I mean if you think about a year it is a hell of a short period of time. The older I get the quicker my life is flashing through my eyes. Twelve months is going by and that\\u2019s Christmas comes quicker every year, summers get shorter.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 I think that comes down from previous guidance, documents, the proof card practice, you kind of stated re-inspections or inspection of materials should be done annually. However, when the new proof card practice was put up in whenever it was, 2012, it kind of sort of\\u2026

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 It reworded that section.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, reworded that element.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 This section, have you got it? \\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yes, so it kind of just pointed towards any identifiable suspect, ACM, must be inspected and its condition assessed periodically so no actual [unclear \\u2013 5:12] specific in there. It is not the whole has been damaged. The frequency of inspection would depend on the location, the ACMs, and other factors which old affect their condition for example the activities in building, non-occupancy, etc. There will also be events or changes for example maintenance work, new tenants or employees should also attribute the review of the plan. So it doesn\\u2019t actually put a timeframe on it however what I believe the interpretation of that is really you\\u2019ve got asbestos materials which are in high volume, high traffic, high occupancy areas, I think you would need to increase the time of inspection rather than decrease it.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Definitely. I think that\\u2019s a very key point because I think a lot of people look to maximize the time between re-inspections because obviously it costs a lot of money. However, just looking at the word periodically it means from time to time or occasionally, but it also means at regular occurring intervals so even the word itself means both.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, so if you will then try to do re-inspection every two years it is not kind of regular. Is it?

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 No.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 And lots of people trying to sort of push towards that I think. Now, don\\u2019t get me wrong, if you\\u2019ve got a mastic pad in a sink within a pumping station that somebody probably goes to once a year then re-inspecting that every year may not be reasonably practical. You could maybe extend that to every two years if you had the evidence to back that up. Now, what I mean by that is if you\\u2019ve got a risk assessment that you\\u2019ve carried out re-inspections for a period of time that may be annually for the last two, three, four years and no change has happened to that material, then yes, you\\u2019d have the evidence to say, actually I\\u2019m now going to change the frequency of that because I\\u2019ve got the evidence to that over the last 4-5 years the material hasn\\u2019t changed. It hasn\\u2019t been disturbed.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah. I think that is the key point there. It\\u2019s you take the asbestos information but then you churn that through another type of risk assessment to then determine how often you should be doing it because periodically it is different for different things. Again, if you had a mastic pad to a sink in a staff room and for the last four years you have re-inspected it and there\\u2019s been no change. Yeah, you could make that judgment and go, you know what, it hasn\\u2019t been affected so I am going to bump it to every other year no or whatever. I personally wouldn\\u2019t that because the staff room is being used day in and day out and the risk of that material changing is increased because there is more people in and around itself.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 And if you got one mastic pad in a school you probably more likely to have other asbestos materials in there which would maybe fall into a higher re-inspecting regime.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, again, I think it probably make sense you go to the highest category for the re-inspection rather than doing like split shift on what you are going to re-inspect because then it can get complicated.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 So to give you an increase, I know you kind of touch on earlier, so if you\\u2019ve got an asbestos material in a school corridor, maybe an asbestos panel on a fire door, re-inspecting that every 1-2 years is not really practical I don\\u2019t think.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 100% not. Even a school, or even a business like an office or anything like that.\\xa0

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, yeah, where you got high traffic areas. You\\u2019ve got an asbestos product whether it will be low risk, medium risk, high risk, whatever, if you got it in that location you\\u2019ve got high risk of human exposure because of the occupancy, the activities, the amount of people that are in there. So therefore, really, in that situation you probably looking at daily if not weekly inspections on that material.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 100%, definitely. It is a very good one, right? So if you look at a panel on a back of the door in a business corridor, like I said offices, the likelihood of that getting disturbed would be less because as adults normally we open\\u2026

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Don\\u2019t kick doors.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 We open doors properly. We don\\u2019t play football inside. We don\\u2019t write \\u201cNeil loves Eleanor\\u201d on the back of a door and scribe it in with a pen knife.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 In my doors.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 But if you compare that to a school, well, I mean that\\u2019s the difference. So an office corridor is going to be used normally usually\\u2026

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 As adults.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 As adults. Whereas kids at school they are absolutely horrendous at times. Like you say, kick doors.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Well, if you say to a child don\\u2019t kick that door. It is like, you know, [unclear \\u2013 9:52] Isn\\u2019t it?

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 If somebody says to me don\\u2019t do something, now, I\\u2019m still likely going to do it. I\\u2019m like a big child. Yeah, so exactly that and it is like. So if you take those two scenarios the arrow being in the corridor you might go, do you know what it is a high risk material in a high risk area we are going to re-inspect that once every three months, once every six months. But like you said about the school you\\u2019re going to be one who\\u2019s look at that daily or at least weekly I would say because of the likelihood. It goes up through the roof because of the occupants in the area. So it is kind of the blanket industry thing that everybody has taken on over the years are going, yeah once year, once a year, once a year. It is [unclear \\u2013 10:29] It is literally [unclear \\u2013 10:31] and it all should be risk assessment based on all of those elements really.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah. But equally to that because of these kind of change, not change, but like loosening in the wording. Some people have taken that as to, you don\\u2019t have to do that every year anymore. They have taken it the wrong way.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, and it is the wrong way.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 It\\u2019s not a loser, it should be tighter.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, and that is the way you can read that because before it said annually, so now it doesn\\u2019t said annually so people have gone, does it say yearly I can go 10 years.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, it should be risked assessed wise.

Ian: \\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, 100%. So one thing when inspections. Who should carry them out?

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 That is a very very good question because we do get asked this quite often. Don\\u2019t we?

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 And I\\u2019ve got an opinion but should we just describe the actual guidance on that?

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 So HSE. It should be somebody who is competent.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yes, competent.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, competence. What is competence? HSE determines competence who\\u2019s got knowledge training, experience and other qualities. Never understood what the other qualities mean. I don\\u2019t know whether that means they are really good and they can remember jokes.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 No. It is blue eyes, black eyes, big muscles.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Is it?

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Because that\\u2019s what used to be good qualities as... could be a decent wine collection.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, other qualities. I don\\u2019t know what they are but.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 We\\u2019ll pass on that.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 We\\u2019ll skip on that one.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 If we take the qualifications, what qualifications can you have? Now, this isn\\u2019t any actual set qualifications to you can go and do a re-inspection.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 No, the closest one that comes to it is a surveyor\\u2019s qualification.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 But I don\\u2019t think you have to go that because you\\u2019re not actually surveying for asbestos. You are actually just looking at the material that has already been identified to be to you. But you do need to have some experience of what is asbestos and do you actually know what it is. Do you know what it looks like? Do you know what the materials look like when they change, when they deteriorate, when they start to peel, when there\\u2019s damage, when the material start to provide a risk.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 And if you change the word from a qualification to training and I think that\\u2019s a key point of you can be trained to do re-inspection without having the formal qualification. And what I mean by training, it could be a competence, somebody who always deemed competent. So one of our asbestos consultants could come to your site and walk it with the property manager or the caretaker and give that kind of toolbox talk, that one to one training on look this is the asbestos that you\\u2019ve got on site. These are the kind of risks to look out for. This is what it looks like now if this happens. So like you say, if it peels, if it cracks, if it chips, if a corner comes off. That kind of training because some people you might say, well, going to have to look at that panel, and they look at the panel, and they are going to go well looks like a photo but it might have a big crack in the middle and the corner missing. He\\u2019s like, it is not really damaged. It\\u2019s only a bit. It\\u2019s not properly damaged. Do you know what I mean? That\\u2019s what somebody might look at it as and in reality that\\u2019s not good enough because it has deteriorated.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, and that kind of comes with experience as well. So for instance you may want to body on your site so you may want to pay asbestos consultants to come and do re-inspection with you a couple of times. So you can gain that experience or you may want to do it and then have it audited by an asbestos consultant to ensure that you are gaining the relevant experience and doing it right basically.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, that is who should carry them out. However, all of that said, you can get somebody you deemed competent who can be trained and then gets the experience to do it. The kickery is on that. You\\u2019ve got to update all that information. It is not just the case of I\\u2019d rather look and it is fine. And that\\u2019s the difference I find between professional consultants just like us doing it and people on the DIY approach is when we carry out a re-inspection we re-photograph, re-update, we re-issue the report with all that new information, whereas, on the DIY approach it can be done but lots of several another podcast, if you work enough paper\\u2026

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, you\\u2019ll never get that full update so.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 No.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 You get the picture. What it\\u2019s actually look at now?

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Exactly that.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 It was painted orange, it is now painted red. And this is kind of that\\u2019s when things kind of start to go wrong\\u2026

Ian: \\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Starts getting confused.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 When somebody comes to check your asbestos register they are looking for an orange panel and the asbestos is now red, that\\u2019s when mistakes can kind of start happening.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Oh, well, it is not here anymore. It must have been removed.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Exactly.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 So again, somebody might go, gosh it\\u2019s removed; delete it, rip the page out and then all of a sudden you\\u2019ve got a bit of asbestos that\\u2019s not even being managed because it has been removed from your register without appropriate.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Definitely a possibility. The other thing that I wanted to highlight is if you are doing them yourselves or you are employing somebody outside of the industry you are taking the liability as well for that.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Oh yes.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 So, you know, it\\u2019s then on your PI and you are the competent person all of a sudden.\\xa0\\xa0 \\xa0 \\xa0 \\xa0

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 That is a very, very good point.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Whereas, if you\\u2019re hiring in a professional to give you that advice and provide you that information, you\\u2019ve got their liability as well to rely on.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Definitely. That\\u2019s a really good point because, again, nobody is ensured to do work with asbestos whether that\\u2019s physical work or a re-inspection unless you\\u2019ve got to actually add it into your insurance, right? The insurance industry, they always remove asbestos. That\\u2019s one of the things I remove from everything they do because when asbestos goes wrong it cost a hell lot of money so that is always something that\\u2019s excluded out of every policy. And it\\u2019s only the likes of surveying companies, removal companies, that kind of thing that have it added in because that\\u2019s what they do for a living.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 I know, I\\u2019m giving another example of schools because I think schools is a very particular risk when we are talking about asbestos, so lots of schools rely on their site managers or caretakers to do re-inspections and if you actually step back and think about that. Now, in my experience school caretakers they haven\\u2019t got asbestos knowledge in line with a competent asbestos surveyor/consultant.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 No. They have literally been given the task.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 They\\u2019ve been given the task so they\\u2019ve got to go around and do this.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 They\\u2019ve been shafted.\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 \\xa0\\xa0\\xa0

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah, pretty much. Now, if you actually think about that what\\u2019s the liability on the school if that person, he/she, gets that wrong?

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 It is unthinkable. Some of the high schools, 2000 kids in, if it goes wrong and the amount of kids gets exposed from kind of misinterpretation it\\u2019s next level is ridiculous.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yes. So why would you? You know, re-inspections are not expensive.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 No they are not.\\xa0\\xa0

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 And for your peace of mind. You are not only taking the liability off your hands. That alone should be enough. Two, you get any information, that data used before, it is all new. It is fresh data. It is easy to use and if you got an asbestos database it is all updated accordingly. It\\u2019s not piece of paper, printed off, signed on and crossed out.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Can\\u2019t read someone\\u2019s writing.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Can\\u2019t read someone\\u2019s writing. Yeah, it is kind of a no brainer. No brainer at all.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yeah. But that said, I think the biggest take away about what you spoken about is re-inspection they should be risk assessment based. Don\\u2019t rely on the fact of industry says and it\\u2019s used to say annually.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 I think annually is definitely a benchmark and if you are not doing it manually you need to have\\u2026

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 That\\u2019s a benchmark minimum.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 I was going to say you need to have a word and say, \\u201cWell, are we actually complying here?\\u201d If you are not doing that as a minimum like as we\\u2019ve discussed here that going to more increase not decrease doing inspection regimes.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Exactly that.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 So I hope you found that useful. Remember if you\\u2019ve got any questions please come and join us on the Facebook group in the Asbestos Knowledge Empire.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Just go to Facebook, search in the search bar for Asbestos Knowledge Empire and it will come up.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yup, we\\u2019ve placed quite a few bits and pieces in there so you can download and stuff like that.

Ian:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 Yes, there\\u2019s downloads, there are forms, there is extra information, the stuff that we spoke about in another podcast, the links to stuff, that\\u2019s all in there.

Neil:\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0 And remember if you like this information. You found it useful we really like a 5-star review and hit the subscribe button. Remember, Asbestos first, not last.\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0\\xa0

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