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This conversation explores the never-before-told true story of Jane Elliott and the \\u201cBlue-Eyes, Brown-Eyes Experiment\\u201d she made world-famous, using eye color to simulate racism.

Shermer and Bloom discuss: Jane Elliott and how she came to conduct her famous experiment \\u2022 reactions to it (in the classroom, locally, nationally, internationally) \\u2022 whether the \\u201cexperiment\\u201d was really more of a demonstration \\u2022 public interest, from Johnny Carson to Oprah Winfrey \\u2022 the questionable ethics of the experiment \\u2022 what it reveals about tribalism, racism, obedience to authority, role playing, social proof \\u2022 whether the experiment reveals hidden racist attitudes or creates them in children \\u2022 Does it indicate bad apples or bad barrels? \\u2022 race sensitivity training programs, then and now (and why they don\\u2019t really work) \\u2022 what drives moral progress \\u2022 the future of journalism.

Stephen Bloom is a professor of journalism at the University of Iowa. He is the author of Blue Eyes, Brown Eyes: A Cautionary Tale of Race and Brutality (University of California Press, 2021); The Audacity of Inez Burns: Dreams, Desire, Treachery & Ruin in the City of Gold (Regan Arts, 2018); Tears of Mermaids: The Secret Story of Pearls (St. Martin\\u2019s Press, 2011); The Oxford Project [with photographer Peter Feldstein] (Welcome Books, 2010); Inside the Writer\\u2019s Mind (Wiley, 2002); and Postville: A Clash of Cultures in Heartland America (Harcourt, 2000). He has worked for the Los Angeles Times, Dallas Morning News, San Jose Mercury News, Sacramento Bee, Latin America Daily Post, and Field News Service. He especially likes writing about every man/woman: the barista, bartender, baker, butcher, barber \\u2014 or murderer-turned-prison employee.