b'Here\\u2019s a sobering thought: The older we get, the harder it is for us to learn, to question, to reimagine. This isn\\u2019t just habit hardening into dogma. It\\u2019s encoded into the way our brains change as we age. And it\\u2019s worsened by an intellectual and economic culture that prizes efficiency and dismisses play.\\n\\nAlison Gopnik is a professor of psychology and philosophy at the University of California, Berkeley, where she runs the Cognitive Development and Learning Lab; she\\u2019s also the author of over 100 papers and half a dozen books, including \\u201cThe Gardener and the Carpenter\\u201d and \\u201cThe Philosophical Baby.\\u201d What I love about her work is she takes the minds of children seriously. The child\\u2019s mind is tuned to learn. They are, she writes, the R. & D. departments of the human race. But a mind tuned to learn works differently from a mind trying to exploit what it already knows.\\n\\nSo instead of asking what children can learn from us, perhaps we need to reverse the question: What can we learn from them?\\n\\nIn this conversation, Gopnik and I discuss the way children think, the cognitive reasons social change so often starts with the young, and the power of play. We talk about why Gopnik thinks children should be considered an entirely different form of Homo sapiens, the crucial difference between \\u201cspotlight\\u201d consciousness and \\u201clantern\\u201d consciousness, why \\u201cgoing for a walk with a 2-year-old is like going for a walk with William Blake,\\u201d what A.I. researchers are borrowing from human children, the effects of different types of meditation on the brain and more.\\n\\nRecommendations: \\n\\n"Where the Wild Things Are" by Maurice Sendak\\n\\n"Mary Poppins in the Park" by P.L. Travers\\n\\n"The Children of Green Knowe" by L. M. Boston\\n\\nYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.\\n\\nThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.\\n\\n\\u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\\u201d is produced by Rog\\xe9 Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.'