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Here are two thoughts I believe need to be held at once: Hamas\u2019s attack on Oct. 7 was heinous, murderous and unforgivable, and that makes it more, not less, important to try to understand what Hamas is, how it sees itself and how it presents itself to Palestinians.\n\nTareq Baconi is the author of \u201cHamas Contained: The Rise and Pacification of Palestinian Resistance,\u201d one of the best books on Hamas\u2019s rise and recent history. He\u2019s done extensive work interviewing members of Hamas and mapping the organization\u2019s beliefs and structure.\n\nIn this conversation, we discuss the foundational disagreement between Hamas and the Palestine Liberation Organization, why Hamas fought the Oslo peace process, the \u201cviolent equilibrium\u201d between Hamas and the Israeli right wing, what Hamas\u2019s 2017 charter reveals about its political goals, why the right of return is sacred for many Palestinians (and what it means in practice), how the leadership vacuum is a \u201ccore question\u201d for Palestinians, why democratic elections for Palestinians are the first step toward continuing negotiations in the future and more.\n\nBook Recommendations:\n\nThe Hundred Years\u2019 War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi\n\nReturning to Haifa by Ghassan Kanafani\n\nLight in Gaza edited by Jehad Abusalim, Jennifer Bing and Mike Merryman-Lotze\n\nThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.\n\nYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of \u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\u201d at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.\n\nThis episode of \u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\u201d was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show\u2019s production team also includes Emefa Agawu and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.