b'Agnes Callard is an ethical philosopher who dissects, in dazzlingly precise detail, familiar human experiences that we think we understand. Whether her topic is expressing anger, fighting with others, jockeying for status, giving advice, or navigating jealousy, Callard provokes us to rethink the emotions and habits that govern how we live. She also happens to be one of my favorite columnists.\\n\\nIn this conversation, I wanted to hear what Callard had to say about a tangle of topics we\\u2019ve explored before on the show: how we measure and trade status, and how that feeds into the amorphous thing we call \\u201cthe meritocracy.\\u201d Callard\\u2019s argument is that we can have a \\u201cnon-punitive\\u201d meritocracy, one that rewards us for our (virtuous) successes but doesn\\u2019t blame us for our failures. I\\u2019m not so sure, but it\\u2019s a fantastic conversation I\\u2019m still thinking about.\\n\\nBut as they say on the infomercials \\u2014 that\\u2019s not all! We also talk about why advice is useless, the benefits of jealousy, whether polyamory and monogamy suffer from the same problem, sad music, why Callard\\u2019s office is such a riot of color, and the secret to a good divorce. And, at the end, I\\u2019ve got some music recommendations for you. Enjoy!\\n\\nMentioned in this episode:\\n\\n\\u201cWho Wants to Play the Status Game?\\u201d by Agnes Callard, The Point\\n\\n\\u201cAgainst Advice,\\u201d by Agnes Callard, The Point\\n\\n\\u201cThe Other Woman,\\u201d by Agnes Callard, The Point\\n\\n\\u201cParenting and Panic,\\u201d by Agnes Callard, The Point\\n\\n"Aspiration" by Agnes Callard\\n\\nRecommendations:\\n\\n"Tolstoy: A Russian Life" by Rosamund Bartlett\\n\\n"Pessoa: A Biography" by Richard Zenith\\n\\n"Augustine of Hippo" by Peter Brown\\n\\n\\u201cReal Death\\u201d by Mount Eerie\\n\\nYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.\\n\\nThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.\\n\\n\\u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\\u201d is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rog\\xe9 Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld, audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin.'