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I\u2019ve been thinking lately about how to move beyond the binary debate over cancel culture. And a good place to start is with the deeper question we\u2019re all trying to ask: What is the kind of politics \u2014 the kind of society \u2014 we\u2019re trying to achieve in our fights over acceptable speech?\n\nTo talk through this question, I wanted to bring on two guests, both of whom have been canceled \u2014 one by the left and one by the right \u2014 and have since dedicated parts of their work to grappling with both the good and the bad of the phenomenon. When is cancellation merited or useful? When is it insufficient or harmful? And what other tools are available in those cases?\n\nNatalie Wynn runs the YouTube channel ContraPoints. Her videos, on topics ranging from cancel culture to J.K. Rowling, are not only intellectually stimulating and aesthetically rich but also deeply humanizing. What sets Wynn apart is a unique capacity to live inside the heads of those she disagrees with vehemently and bring them into a dialogue with her.\n\nWill Wilkinson was the vice president for research at the Niskanen Center. He was fired after a right-wing online mob attacked a clearly satirical tweet he\u2019d sent. Since being canceled, Wilkinson has, surprisingly, become one of the most outspoken critics of the anti-cancel-culture discourse. He now writes the great newsletter Model Citizen, hosts a podcast of the same name and contributes to Times Opinion.\n\nThe result is a very different kind of cancel culture conversation. We discuss the universal yearning for safe spaces, the psychology of the social media pile-on, the political limits of social shame, the pathways to persuasion and humanization, theories of social change, the virtues of an effective political communicator, how social media shapes the way we act and think online and much, much more.\n\nMentioned in this episode: \n\n"A Different Way of Thinking About Cancel Culture" by Ezra Klein\n\n\u201cCanceling\u201d by ContraPoints \n\n\u201cJ.K. Rowling\u201d by ContraPoints\n\n\u201cUndefined Cancel Game\u201d by Will Wilkinson \n\n\u201cThe Boring Truth vs \u2018Cancel Culture\u2019 Panic\u201d by Will Wilkinson\xa0Recommendations: \n\n"Conflict is Not Abuse" by Sarah Schulman\n\n"The Tao is Silent" by Raymond Smullyan\n\nIf you enjoyed this show, you should check out The Argument's recent episode: "Is It Time to Cancel Cancel Culture?" \n\nYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.\n\nThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.\n\n\u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\u201d is produced by Rog\xe9 Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.