b'Sarah Schulman\\u2019s work \\u2014 as a nonfiction writer, novelist, activist, playwright and filmmaker \\u2014 confronts the very thing most people try to avoid: conflict. Schulman, far from running from it, believes we need more of it.\\n\\nThis was true in Schulman\\u2019s 2016 book, \\u201cConflict Is Not Abuse,\\u201d which argues that people often mislabel conflict as abuse without recognizing the power that they have to potentially abuse others. Viewing oneself as a victim can be one way to earn compassion. But powerful groups often use their perceived victimhood as an excuse to harm those who are more vulnerable. And more individually, people often don\\u2019t see when they have power, and they often fear or dodge the work of repair. It\\u2019s a challenging and prescient book, with a deep faith in the healing power of not just communication, but of collision.\\n\\nSchulman\\u2019s latest book, \\u201cLet the Record Show,\\u201d is a history of ACT UP New York, the direct-action group that reshaped AIDS activism in the late \\u201980s and early \\u201990s. It\\u2019s a book about necessary conflicts: between the AIDS community and the U.S. government, and between queer people and a widely homophobic society. But it\\u2019s also about conflict among people who generally agree with one another and are working toward a common goal. Schulman calls the book \\u201ca political history,\\u201d but it\\u2019s also a work of political theory: a proposal for how social movements can become more effective by embracing dissensus rather than striving for consensus.\\n\\nWe began this conversation discussing ACT UP, conflict and Schulman\\u2019s theory of political change. But we also ended up discussing Israel and Palestine, a topic she has written widely about. And Schulman shares her thoughts on contemporary L.G.B.T.Q. politics and what she thinks has been lost as queer culture has become more mainstream.\\n\\nMentioned in this episode: \\n\\nLet the Record Show: A Political History of ACT UP New York, 1987-1993 by Sarah Schulman \\n\\nConflict Is Not Abuse: Overstating Harm, Community Responsibility, and the Duty of Repair by Sarah Schulman\\n\\nRecommendations: \\n\\nPoor Queer Studies: Confronting Elitism in the University by Matt Brim\\n\\nVanguard: How Black Women Broke Barriers, Won the Vote, and Insisted on Equality for All by Martha S. Jones\\n\\nMemorial Drive: A Daughter\\u2019s Memoir by Natasha Trethewey\\n\\nYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.\\n\\nThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.\\n\\n\\u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\\u201d is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rog\\xe9 Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld, audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin.'