BROADCASTS.com

When the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, it scrambled the landscape of abortion access in America, including in ways that one might not entirely expect. Many conservative states made the procedure essentially illegal \u2014 that part was predictable. But there\u2019s also been this striking backlash in blue states, with many of them making historic efforts to expand abortion access, for both their residents and for women living in abortion-restricted states.\n\nAnd this has created all kinds of new battle lines \u2014 between states, and states and the federal government \u2014 involving travel, speech, privacy and executive power. It\u2019s an explosion of conflicts and constitutional questions that the legal historian Mary Ziegler says has no parallel in modern times. She\u2019s the author of six books on reproductive rights in America, including \u201cRoe: The History of a National Obsession,\u201d and the Martin Luther King Jr. professor of law at the University of California, Davis. \u201cWe\u2019re seeing, from conservative and progressive states, moves to project power outside of their borders in ways we really haven\u2019t seen in a really long time,\u201d she told me.\n\nIn this conversation, Ziegler explains the bifurcated abortion landscape that has emerged since the decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women\u2019s Health Organization overturned Roe. We discuss the different political and legal strategies conservative and progressive states are using to pursue their opposing goals; why the abortion rate has gone up, even as 14 states have implemented near-total bans on abortion; and how a second Trump administration could try to restrict access to abortion for all Americans, no matter what states they live in.\n\nMentioned:\n\n\u201cHarsh Anti-abortion Laws Are Not Empty Threats\u201d by Mary Ziegler\n\nBook Recommendations:\n\nThe Family Roe by Joshua Prager\n\nTiny You by Jennifer L. Holland\n\nDefenders of the Unborn by Daniel K. Williams\n\n\u201cBefore Roe v. Wade\u201d by Linda Greenhouse and Reva B. Siegel\n\nThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.\n\nYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of \u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\u201d at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.\n\nThis episode of \u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\u201d was produced by Claire Gordon and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. The show\u2019s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.