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For years, Agnes Callard has been on a mission to take ethical philosophy out of the ivory tower. She examines everyday human experiences \u2014 jockeying for status, navigating jealousy, marriage \u2014 with dazzling detail, publishing regularly in mainstream publications. And she tries to live by her philosophy, too, even if it violates social conventions, as many discovered when The New Yorker published a provocative profile of Callard last year. \n\nWe recorded this conversation in May 2021, before the New Yorker article drew attention to the details of her home life. (She lives with both her husband and her ex-husband.) But after our episode with Rhaina Cohen about imagining relationships more expansively, we thought it would be interesting to revisit Callard, who has spent so much time dissecting the dynamics and ethics of different relationships and their possibilities.\n\nMentioned:\n\n\u201cWho Wants to Play the Status Game?\u201d by Agnes Callard, The Point\n\n\u201cAgainst Advice,\u201d by Agnes Callard, The Point\n\n\u201cThe Other Woman,\u201d by Agnes Callard, The Point\n\n\u201cParenting and Panic,\u201d by Agnes Callard, The Point\n\n"Aspiration" by Agnes Callard\n\nBook Recommendations:\n\n"Tolstoy: A Russian Life" by Rosamund Bartlett\n\n"Pessoa: A Biography" by Richard Zenith\n\n"Augustine of Hippo" by Peter Brown\n\n\u201cReal Death\u201d by Mount Eerie\n\nThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.\n\nYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of \u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\u201d at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.\n\nThis episode of \u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\u201d is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rog\xe9 Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld, audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin.