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A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?\n\nHolly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album \u201cPROTO.\u201d Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called \u201cSpawn\u201d trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others\u2019 work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists \u2014 and all of us creating content on the internet \u2014 to \u201cconsent\u201d to our work being used as training data.\n\nIn this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her \u201cA.I. baby,\u201d Spawn, on \u201cPROTO\u201d; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term \u201ccollective intelligence\u201d to \u201cartificial intelligence\u201d; why an \u201copt-in\u201d model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.\n\nMentioned:\n\n\u201cFear, Uncertainty, Doubt\u201d by Holly Herndon\n\n\u201cxhairymutantx\u201d by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art\n\n\u201cFade\u201d by Holly Herndon\n\n\u201cSwim\u201d by Holly Herndon\n\n\u201cJolene\u201d by Holly Herndon and Holly+\n\n\u201cMovement\u201d by Holly Herndon\n\n\u201cChorus\u201d by Holly Herndon\n\n\u201cGodmother\u201d by Holly Herndon\n\n\u201cThe Precision of Infinity\u201d by Jlin and Philip Glass\n\nHolly+\n\nBook Recommendations:\n\nIntelligence and Spirit by Reza Negarestani\n\nChildren of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky\n\nPlurality by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and \u2ffb Community\n\nThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.\n\nYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of \u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\u201d at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.\n\nThis episode of \u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\u201d was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show\u2019s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.