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Russia\u2019s invasion of Ukraine is only getting more brutal: We\u2019ve seen the bodies of civilians strewn in the streets in Bucha, the city of Mariupol almost leveled and, just a few days ago, a Russian missile attack on a crowded train station in Kramatorsk killing at least 50 people. The United Nations has confirmed 1,793 civilian deaths in Ukraine, though the actual number is thought to be far higher.\n\nRussia\u2019s viciousness in this campaign makes Ukraine\u2019s resilience all the more remarkable. Ukrainians have defied expectations in staving off Russia\u2019s far larger army and holding cities like Kyiv that some believed might fall within days of an invasion. Much of the commentary in recent weeks has revolved around what this war has revealed about Russia: its myths, its military, its leadership, its threat. What\u2019s no less important, though, is what this war has revealed about Ukraine.\n\nUkrainians have modeled a deep commitment to self-determination and shown how far they would go to protect it. The Ukrainian philosopher and editor Volodymyr Yermolenko has written that \u201cfreedom is the key trait of Ukraine\u2019s identity as a political nation,\u201d and Ukraine\u2019s resistance testifies to how deep that trait runs.\n\nYermolenko is a philosopher, the editor in chief of UkraineWorld and the editor of the essay collection \u201cUkraine in Histories and Stories.\u201d I invited Yermolenko onto the show to help me understand how Ukraine has defined itself in relation to the political behemoths to its east and west: Russia and Europe. Our conversation also explores what it has felt like to be in Kyiv as Russian troops have shelled the city, how definitions of time and home change during war, what has \u2014 and hasn\u2019t \u2014 surprised Yermolenko about the Ukrainian resistance, what people in the West may not understand about the cultural differences between Ukraine and Russia, why Ukraine\u2019s political structure makes it so difficult to conquer, how Ukraine is reminding the West why its republican and humanistic values matter, what Yermolenko would say to President Biden if he could and more.\n\nMentioned:\n\n\u201cVolodymyr Yermolenko, a Ukrainian philosopher, considers his national identity\u201d by Volodymyr Yermolenko\n\n\u201cDreams of Europe\u201d by Volodymyr Yermolenko\n\nBook Recommendations:\n\n\u201cUkraine in Histories and Stories\u201d by Volodymyr Yermolenko\n\n\u201cThe Gates of Europe\u201d by Serhii Plokhy\n\n\u201cLost Kingdom\u201d by Serhii Plokhy\n\n\u201cChernobyl\u201d by Serhii Plokhy\n\n\u201cBlood of Others\u201d by Rory Finnin\n\nThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.\n\nYou can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of \u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\u201d at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.\n\n\u201cThe Ezra Klein Show\u201d is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rog\xe9 Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.