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\u201cI want to say that it's not just some idea about suffering, it's also a function of social and economic systems that are deliberately weaponizing an individualized view of suffering as a technique, as a strategy. I found across eras and eras and eras in the book is that addiction supply industries, which is what one scholar calls them, like the alcohol industry, the tobacco industry, they constantly come back to this hyper individualization in saying, you know, like, the problem is not in the bottle, the problems in the person. If so many people can drink, quote unquote normally, that means the problem is really with these sick people over here. And that happened with tobacco. And then very directly and deliberately, things like the processed food industry and other modern addiction supply industries have used the same language.\u201d\n\nSo says Carl Erik Fisher, an addiction psychiatrist, bioethics scholar, author, and person in recovery. Carl is also an assistant professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University, where he teaches law, ethics, and policy relating to psychiatry and neuroscience, particularly where they converge with substance use disorders and other addictive behaviors. He hosts a podcast called Flourishing After Addiction and is launching a Substack, where he\u2019ll organize his thinking around treatment paths and modalities. Most pertinent to our conversation today, he\u2019s the author of The Urge: Our History of Addiction, which is a fascinating deep dive into our long cultural fascination with addictive substances, interlaced with his own story, and stories from his practice: In fact, the book opens in Bellevue where Carl is not functioning as a doctor\u2014in this case, he\u2019s the patient, after suffering an addiction-induced manic episode that put him into recovery. Carl is brilliant and kind, and also fluent in all the prevailing science about addictive behavior\u2026science that hasn\u2019t really ruled the day until recent years. Instead, the addiction space has been one of binaries\u2014you\u2019re compulsive, or you exercise choice; you\u2019re normal, or an addict; you have no control to stop, or you have all the control and refuse to use it; and on and on and on. \n\nMORE FROM CARL ERIK FISHER:\nThe Urge: Our History of Addiction\nCarl\u2019s Podcast: Flourishing After Addiction\nCarl\u2019s Website\nFollow Carl on Instagram\nCarl\u2019s Newsletter\nCarl\u2019s Substack\n\nFurther Listening on Pulling the Thread:\nPART 1: Holly Whitaker, \u201cReimagining Recovery\u201d\nADDICTION: Anna Lembke, M.D., \u201cNavigating an Addictive Culture\u201d\nTRAUMA: Gabor Mat\xe9, M.D., \u201cWhen Stress Becomes Illness\u201d\nBINGE EATING DISORDER: Susan Burton, \u201cWhose Pain Counts?\u201d\n \nTo learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy\n \n Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices