Week in Review: April 2, 2021
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This week Crystal and Marcus Harrison Green, publisher of the South Seattle Emerald and columnist with The Seattle Times, go over the Kshama Sawant recall petition being allowed to move forward by the WA Supreme Court, a pro-encampment sweep Seattle charter amendment coated in flowery language about compassion, and Marcus\\u2019 recent column in The Seattle Times that asks: \\u201cWhy does society shrug when Black men are killed in Seattle\\u2019s South End?\\u201d
As always, a full text transcript of the show is available below and at officialhacksandwonks.com.
Find the host, Crystal Fincher on Twitter at @finchfrii and find Marcus Harrison Green at @mhgreen3000. More info is available at officialhacksandwonks.com.
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Resources
Read Marcus\\u2019 column here: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/when-black-men-are-killed-in-seattles-south-end-why-does-society-shrug/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=owned_echobox_tw_m&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1617295546\\xa0
Learn more about the pro-sweep proposed charter amendment here: https://publicola.com/2021/04/02/16919/\\xa0
Find out more about the Kshama Sawant recall petition here: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/recall-effort-against-seattle-city-councilmember-kshama-sawant-can-move-forward-washington-supreme-court-rules/\\xa0
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Transcript
Lisl Stadler: [00:00:00] This is Lisl, producer of Hacks and Wonks. We wanted to let you know that in this episode, around the 24:30 mark, there is some slightly distorted audio. Remote recording during the pandemic is vulnerable to people\'s fluctuating internet speeds, but we thought it was important enough information to include. If you\'re having trouble understanding what is said, you can refer to the full transcript included in the episode notes and available at officialhacksandwonks.com.
Crystal Fincher: [00:00:50] Welcome to Hacks and Wonks. I\'m your host, Crystal Fincher. On this show, we talk with political hacks and policy wonks to gather insight into state and local politics and policy through the lens of those doing the work and provide behind-the-scenes perspectives on politics in our state. Full transcripts and resources referenced in the show are always available at officialhacksandwonks.com and in our episode notes. Today, we\'re continuing our Friday almost live shows where we review the news of the week with a guest cohost.\\xa0
Welcome to the program today\'s co-host, publisher of the South Seattle Emerald and columnist with the Seattle Times - had an excellent piece in the Times this past week - Marcus Harrison Green.
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:01:28] Crystal, it is so great to join you as always. I got to have you as my hype person \'cause you just put a flavor in there, you just drop it, you know? So thank you so much.\\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:01:37] Well, I mean, you deserve it! You deserve it - you are, you know - South Seattle Emerald is killing it in all categories and it\'s just fantastic and wonderful. And as if that wasn\'t enough, you\'re just like dropping columns in the Seattle Times that have the entire city talking. So I\'m excited to have you here.\\xa0
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:01:56] Excited to be here. I don\'t get a lot of sleep, as you know, so I\'m highly caffeinated today just for you.\\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:02:02] I am joining you with the highly caffeinated crew. It is absolutely crucial at this point in time - coming up near the end of session, campaigns kicking off, and everyone just doing the most. And so I guess we will start off talking about one piece of news that we got this week out of the Supreme Court. And that was a ruling that the recall effort against Seattle City Council member, Kshama Sawant, is allowed to move forward. And there certainly was a lot of reaction to that. Do you want to recap what happened there?\\xa0
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:02:40] Yeah. So it looks like this recall effort has been essentially really going on since she was declared the victor in the last election cycle here for D3, which is a majority of Capitol Hill and then a sliver of the CID district as well.
It\'s, you know, I got to say, this is one of those things where it seems like there - as we know, Councilmember Sawant can be very polarizing in this City. And she elicits a very strong reaction from people who are - who love her, and people who do not. And so, it wasn\'t actually surprising that, at least for me, certainly wasn\'t surprising that this recall effort has continued on and it honestly wasn\'t surprising that it was ruled that it could move forward.
Now we will see whether or not - one of the rulings, I believe one of the rulings was that it could not actually appear on the primary, which will be happening in August, but it looks like it\'s - if they can collect enough signatures and I think they needed to collect 33,000, that it can appear on the ballot for the general election in November, which is expected to have high turnout. You\'ll obviously have the mayoral race on that ballot, along with the at-large City positions, which there are two of them, of course. And so it\'s - if you were either, you know, a person who was anti the recall or pro the recall, you have the largest sample size and largest voting block, or at least you can anticipate that, in November.\\xa0
So it should be pretty interesting, I\'ll say. It does look like some financial backers for the pro recall folks - it looks like there\'s a member of the Nordstrom family, as well as the political consultants, I should say, Sound Strategies. So it\'s -\\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:04:50] They\'re funding the recall effort against Sawant.
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:04:54] Yes. The recall effort against Sawant - they are financial backers of it, or have contributed to it, I should say. So it\'s no surprise there - if you know some of the politics involved. I mean, people will certainly, I think, categorize themselves as a progressive and liberal, who were sort of, I don\'t know, just anti-Sawant. But that being said, who knows, right? Who knows who people actually are or what their motivations actually are. So.\\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:05:26] Well it\'ll be interesting and Soundview Strategies has certainly been instrumental in electing and advising Jenny Durkan. So given her rhetoric that many people viewed to be inflammatory against Sawant and other more progressive councilmembers, last election cycle in the City of Seattle, not surprising that they are pushing hard to get Sawant out.
But it\'s also like, what do they think they would get in her place? Like the district is voting her in, so that is clearly what they want. They are - it\'s no surprise. They know exactly what they\'re getting - they reelected her. So, if they think that all of a sudden they would get this corporatist candidate, I don\'t know how they think - even if they got Sawant out that fundamentally many things would change because the district has made its preference clear multiple times now - it wasn\'t a fluke.\\xa0
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:06:30] Yes. I mean, I think, you know, I guess it should be noted, right? That it was a fairly close race between her - Sawant and Egan Orion, this last go around, right? I mean, I think the initial count, at least the first day count, I should say, had Egan Orion in the lead. As more and more ballots were counted, obviously, by that Friday, I want to say that it was pretty clear that Sawant was going to win. And so I think, you know, this recall effort for Sawant is by people who just never wanted her there in the first place. And they\'re essentially trying to exhaust every single possibility they can to get her out.\\xa0
Here\'s the thing, I mean that - what, that was less than a year ago at this point, where that election took place and there\'s already a recall effort. I mean - look, whether you like Councilmember Sawant or you don\'t, what has been the offense that she\'s supposedly done that it warrants a recall -\\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:07:32] She\'s a socialist and that should scare you! - is, I think, where people land on that one. And I think you hit the nail on the head. These are people who didn\'t want her there in the first place. They\'re viewing this as a remedy for accomplishing something that the election couldn\'t or wouldn\'t, and is something that they\'re looking at there.\\xa0
So, you know, just reading the details here, it looks like petitioners now have 180 days to collect 10,000 signatures from residents of District 3, Sawant\'s district. And if they do, the recall election, which would not be competitive - just an up or down vote on Sawant - would be held with the general election in November or early next year. I\'m sure, for many reasons, including just economically and giving more of the City of voice, the preference would be for it to be on the general election ballot in November. But we will see what happens and we\'ll see how that unfolds\\xa0
It, you know, there are a lot of people who just get really mad at the mention of Councilmember Sawant. I remember there was an interview I did at a TV station, that I will not name, shortly after that primary. After the primary in the last cycle where Kshama did not finish in first place - it was a crowded primary. And the newsperson kept asking me like, Okay, well, you know, Kshama has no chance. right? And I\'m like, Well, actually, if you look at it - she has a really good chance. I would rather be her than her opponent at this time. Because if you look at the composition of candidates that were in that crowded primary, they actually shared her positions. And the opposition was, you know, if you\'re looking at the Amazon-funded - they didn\'t want the head tax. Well, the candidates that got the majority of the votes across the board favored the head tax. They favored positions that Kshama did. So just looking at where the voters were, it looked like Kshama certainly wasn\'t doomed. And as I said, I\'d rather be her if I\'m picking - I think she\'s in the strongest position. They just looked at me like I had three heads and like, Okay, she must just be this radical, you know, maybe she\'s a secret socialist. This is a mistake asking her about this race.\\xa0
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:10:02] Well Crystal, you are not a secret socialist. I think you\'re pretty open about your socialism, so I don\'t, I don\'t know why there\'s -\\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:10:07] Oh my gosh -
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:10:08] No,I\'ll definitely correct myself then - yeah, it was 10,000 signatures. I think I was thinking of the initiative that we\'ll be talking about. The citywide initiative, potentially city wide initiative, that we\'ll be talking about soon. But, all that being said - yeah, I got to completely agree with you in terms of that last primary too. I think it was - my read on that whole thing was it seems that the sort of big business class and the Amazons of the world got a little too greedy with trying to go after Sawant, if you will. In the sense of they wanted an all or nothing type thing. And it was if they, I think as you said, if you looked at that primary in terms of policy-wise, I mean, people in that district - they were majority largely - they were all about the head tax. They were all about very progressive policies, right?\\xa0
Now, the people who maybe voted against Sawant in that primary, maybe they didn\'t necessarily like her tone or tactics, per se, but I think they\'re in agreement with her policies largely. And I thought, honestly, that if Amazon truly had wanted to get Sawant out of that position, they would have tried to play the long game of like, Okay. Let\'s try to get somebody like, I want to say, I think Zachary DeWolf, the current school board director, was running in that race and pretty much had all of the same politics more or less than Sawant, except he came across as - it\'s more of his tone was more measured, you might say, right? It\'s somebody who would "reach across the aisle." I think if they had - if Amazon had truly wanted to get Sawant out, they would have tried to either just stay out of that race or try to, you know, more or less back somebody like DeWolf who could - whose tone people might\'ve liked a little bit better. But instead, and then, you know, this election cycle, they get a DeWolf. The next election cycle, then maybe they go for somebody who was more to their liking or what have you. But instead I think they tried to go for that all or nothing approach and it ended up being nothing. And shame on, you know, and they had egg on their face somewhat.\\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:12:21] Yeah, well, I mean, I think that the tone of the political conversation in Seattle over the past 15 years has shifted to the left. No question. You even look at the Council that we had 10 years ago versus the Council that we have now. And, you know, on the Seattle spectrum, which is not a Republican leading to Democratic spectrum. But on the Democratic spectrum, it shifted from one end to the other. And I think that it\'s hard for a lot of people to contextualize that. And they\'re still back 10 years ago and thinking that policy and rhetoric from 10 years ago is going to fly today. And it doesn\'t, it sounds farcical, really.\\xa0
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:13:10] I wholeheartedly agree with you. \\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:13:12] That was the little sub-comment... I have some comments in mind!
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:13:13] Some things we were talking about prior to the recording - yes!\\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:13:20] Um, but you know, this is probably a good transition to talking about what you just mentioned, which is the new initiative, a charter amendment change, that will be put on the ballot for City of Seattle. That is being messaged as - a way to compassionately provide services for homeless people, and to make sure they have resources, and we\'re funding housing, and we\'re funding services. And also saying that they\'re going to get more aggressive with sweeps. And basically saying that they can keep sidewalks clear, they can clear public areas. Certainly, for all of the - we\'ve talked a lot about the dog whistles and the coded language that go into cleaning up Seattle streets and keeping our city clean and, and - which are all ways to say, We don\'t want a visible reminder of people who\'re unhoused. We don\'t want to see or deal with it, and do whatever you can do to just get it out of my world and my reality. Which is really manifested through these sweeps that we\'ve been talking a lot about recently. So I guess what\'s your take on this legislation?
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:14:50] Yeah. I mean, you know, I know this isn\'t a perfect parallel, certainly, but certainly I think that at least when it comes to local politics, it\'s a decent approximation. When I was reading through this, I was thinking a lot about some of the stuff that\'s going on in Georgia now with sort of these voter suppression laws and the - it\'s sort of a logical explanation, or I\'ll say illogical, but there are these "sound logical arguments" that people were making for some of these appeals. And it\'s kind of like, well, look - if there was technically like, the onus is on you, right, as the person making this - trying to implement these laws. And are trying to get these laws passed, I should say. If the onus is on you to prove that there\'s something wrong, right? I mean, is there something wrong with how people vote now, or whatever, that needs to be fixed?\\xa0
In this case, right, is there something wrong, right now, with how these sweeps and so forth are being implemented? That they\'re, I mean, are they not aggressive enough for you? Like what is, you know, what - I just don\'t understand the need for this right now. Other than, as you were saying, people essentially just don\'t want to see any type of blight on their fair city or what have you. And are trying to essentially make it more and more of a hardship on people who are unhoused to be in areas that are "public spaces" or public amenities.
And so for me, I mean, this just seems like an extremely - just extremely callous potential initiative that is couched in this language of compassion and love. And we\'re all in this together, but we all are not, quite frankly.\\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:16:48] Yeah, and you nailed it right there. It is cloaked in the language of compassion. And you can\'t get any more forward than the coalition calling itself Compassionate Seattle, who filed this petition to amend the charter amendment. And Erica Barnett and PubliCola have been following this issue for quite some time. I know Erica basically called this development and this happening. And as we look at this, there\'s certainly - you know, I think everyone can agree. And I see Lisa Daugaard in here, who\'s Director of the Public Defender Association. And she says, Hey, this is about creating alternatives to living outdoors and really saying that, Hey, we have to do the work to keep people from living in public. People shouldn\'t be living in public.
And on that, I think there\'s broad agreement. People should not be forced to live in public. There should be effective and compassionate and respectful shelter alternatives and paths to stable, permanent housing. I think the question is - the mandate in here to ensure that parks and public spaces are open and clear of encampments, is a clear direction and clear indication to return to aggressive sweeps. And to return to just default, I see someone in public - call the police, get them out. And afraid - go ahead.\\xa0
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:18:27] Oh, I\'m sorry. Uh, no, I was just gonna say that it\'s - yeah, I mean it\'s, as you said, I mean, it\'s very Orwellian language with which they\'re using to again, try to promote what is a very callous and cruel practice, right? I mean,it\'s one thing if you do have shelter space that is open and available and accessible to folks. And as you said, there\'s nobody, I don\'t think, anybody across the board who doesn\'t think or doesn\'t know, I should say at this point, that we need to aggressively build more shelter space and more housing for folks.
And I think - what the last, I believe in the PubliCola story that ran on this, it was something like $400 million a year or something is needed county-wide, I want to say, for additional housing for our unhoused population. So, I mean,it isn\'t as if we just have this shelter space, our leader can snap our fingers and it automatically materializes. And that we have this abundance of that, which will allow people to go into more stable housing if this initiative was to pass. So I, again, it\'s just a very callous and cruel way to try to implement this. And I hope that folks can see through this and, just as a correction earlier, this is the one that would need 33,000 signatures.\\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:20:04] Yeah. And just kind of a recap of what this does, you\'re absolutely right - need 30,000 valid signatures from Seattle voters. It\'ll create 2,000 new units of emergency or permanent housing. Two very different things. Very, very broad category that includes everything from 24-7 shelters, congregate shelters. It says that those 2,000 have to be created within one year and mandate that a minimum of 12% of the city\'s general fund goes to a new fund inside the Human Services Department.
And while that\'s wonderful to message, the City already spends 11% in this category right now, so lots of people are going, Okay, but what\'s the difference. And then you\'re saying 2,000 new units of any kind of housing. How does that address the much larger number of unhoused people who are on the streets right now in Seattle?\\xa0
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:21:07] Well, and where\'s that housing going to be placed? Is there going to be wraparound services tied to it? Right, I mean, there\'s just so many questions that they obviously haven\'t answered, or bothered to answer, quite frankly, with this. And that betrays the fact that I don\'t think they really care. I think they care more about just getting folks out of parks and these public spaces and out of their sight.
Crystal Fincher: [00:21:33] Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, even just - it can allocate funding and money, but one point that Erica Barnett has made is that - look at how long it has taken, even with money earmarked and, Hey, it\'s funded - to just build housing. It has been a longterm, lengthy, delayed thing, especially when the mayor and Council do not agree. We\'ve been trying to get a few thousand units of housing built for Durkan\'s entire term. She made big promises coming in on what she was going to do and has basically crept along and hasn\'t come close to what she had intended. So, yeah. It\'s great and wonderful and everything to allocate resources, but is that going to change the entire dynamic of politics in Seattle to make these housing units appear?
And among the 2,000, how many of them are going to be units that people who are unhoused can immediately occupy, with the services to help move them to more permanent housing. That looks like it is coming nowhere close to addressing the issue, and really like it was just thrown in the initiative to say, Hey, but look, we\'re doing something, we\'re actually helping, in order to sneak in the provision of - Hey, we can keep all public places and spaces clear, regardless of whether there is actually a place and services for people to land, if you do say you can\'t be in this space. So, and again, when you look at the people who are funding it and the rhetoric that they\'ve used leading up to now, certainly it does not necessarily give you confidence that they are looking at this through, despite their name, a compassionate view of people who are dealing with homelessness on the streets and helping them to get out of that situation. Seems like it\'s more targeted to preventing people from having to look at people who are unhoused.\\xa0
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:23:39] No, I agree, and as a mentor of mine used to say about initiatives and public policy efforts, always look at the company somebody keeps. That\'s usually a good indicator of what they actually think. Not what they say. So, there you go.\\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:23:55] Absolutely. But especially in Seattle where people have gotten real savvy when it comes to wrapping issues and all of the progressive and compassionate words and everyone says the right things. But if you look at their behavior, and if you look at where they\'re at on policy before, those tell very different stories. And my goodness, there sure is a bright history of people\'s big funders being a very good predictor of where they\'re going to land on issues despite rhetoric that they have given before the election. So I hope Seattle voters take that into account.\\xa0
So I want to pivot and talk about an article that you wrote, a column that you had in the Times this week, which was just so exactly on the nose. And I just want to let you really talk about and explain the issue overall.\\xa0
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:24:59] Yeah. Thank you so much for providing space and time for that, Crystal.
Yeah. So the - wrote an article that appeared in Thursday\'s Seattle Times. It\'ll be in the South Seattle Emerald on Sunday, for those who can\'t get past the paywall for the Times. But, essentially, it was calling out the facts. That when we have deaths in South Seattle, and they\'ve, honestly, largely been Black males who have been the victims of gun violence. In that area, we kind of shrug our shoulders and, you know, I\'m a lifelong South Seattleite and it hasn\'t changed in the 30 some odd years that I\'ve lived here. It seems like in this area of town, right, there\'s always a level of detachment and disconnection with the wider, larger city.\\xa0
And, I remember there were times and bringing an example forward of my friend, Latrel Williams, who I actually talked to his mother for this - kind of opened the article with her. And he\'s a man that I knew from high school as a friend, who died four years ago. Some people believe that it was a - that he just happened to be in the wrong place, wrong time. And when he died, he left a son, left a mother, left various friends around. And I just remember the reality over how most media covered the story - it was just another statistic. It\'s just another guy who got one brief sentence in a story that fits the overall narrative that this area is so much more dangerous. And it\'s ultimately because of the pathology of, you know, Black folks that we\'re just, you know, I guess in red or inherently more violent than other people.
And, quite frankly, I just got tired of that narrative. Tired. We all have been tired of that for quite some time. And I wanted to make sure that people knew that our lives, as cliche as it\'s become now, but it stays true. That our lives matter. Our lives matter. And I\'m just so tired of this sort of asymmetrical compassion shown to people. If it happens in other areas of the City, it\'s a tragedy. When it happens here, it\'s a statistic. And there\'s just too often that we\'ve - that people give lip service and virtue signaling to the fact that Black lives matter, yada yada yada. Well, okay then can you show me that you can do it right? Can you show me more than just rhetoric on Twitter? Can you show me more than just rhetoric on - at a speech? Can you show me when you actually invest in our communities?\\xa0
We\'ve known - social science has shown, for the longest dang time, that the reason that gun violence is concentrated in the areas is because they have systemically been divested in. We know that, and we know that those areas that have been - that systemically, faced systemic disinvestment have been areas that were subject to redlining, subject to housing discrimination, subject to inferior educational resources than other places. And those places usually match with communities of color, where communities of color live, and specifically with the Black community.
And so, if we know that it\'s because of a lack of investment that these things continue to happen, you would think then the solution would be to actually invest in these communities. And yet, that continues to not be the case. And so I just wanted to finally just call that out in this -again, the City that is supposedly the flagship for all that is woke and is all this progressive, supposedly in our country and yet, right, we can - we\'ve had five homicides so far this year, at least as we have up to the broadcast date of this podcast. Four of them have taken place in South Seattle. And yet, I mean, who - where is our mayor? Where\'s the City Council in saying, Yeah, this is just as much of a crisis as anything else, and we are going to address this by providing some level of, I shouldn\'t even say some level, but we are - a maximal level, right, of investment into this area and into this community that we have neglected for so, so long. And, as of now, I haven\'t heard any of them say anything.
And so, as I said at the end of my article, as we - as people continue to deliberate and twiddle their thumbs, there are going to be more people who die. And ultimately that is a choice. That\'s a choice that we are making. Um, and it\'s, it\'s sad. It\'s very sad.\\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:29:45] It is absolutely sad and a conversation that we have been having in community for so long. And\\xa0 even - you hit on the head again - the disinvestment in communities. This isn\'t something that just organically came to be, this is the result of an abandonment by the City, by the public, and then a subsequent almost well, literally blaming the community for its own problem and expecting - with fewer, with lower investments, fewer resources, just, you know, Hey, fix it yourself. And I know it kills me every time I see. And as a Black mother of a Black son, just - when there is a shooting in the South End, there is this dismissiveness and, you know, Well, what did they do to deserve it? It was probably a gang thing or a drug thing, and somehow they deserved it. And just seeing the reflex.
And it is so sad that it is now a reflex that grieving parents now have - to show that their child\'s life had value and was worthy of being valued and celebrated and is actually a loss. Like to have to feel like you have to justify to the broader public that the loss of your child actually is a loss to the community in a way that is assumed to be the case in other areas and in other communities. It\'s just such a cruel, cruel thing for someone to have to endure on top of the loss of their child and gets me every single time.\\xa0
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:31:35] Yeah. And it\'s almost as if every - we\'re required to all be Emmett Till when we lose a family, Emmett Till\'s mother when we lose a family member. And, you know, for those who don\'t know, I\'m sure listeners of your show do, but, when - Emmett Till was a young Black man who was, you know, beaten beyond recognition and lynched because he had supposedly whistled at a white woman going down the street. And so his mother decided to have an open casket at his funeral so people could see exactly - so the country at the time could see exactly what racism had done to so many people. So, was doing, I should say, how it was terrorizing Black people. And it seems like we haven\'t changed much to be quite frank with you since that time, in the sense that we continue to have to almost, you know, showcase, and showcase our pain, and showcase our struggle, and showcase our heartache, just to make people give a damn about us as individuals, us as a community, us as Black people. And, um, yeah, I don\'t, I don\'t know what else to say, to be honest with you.
Crystal Fincher: [00:32:47] Yeah, no, I mean, but you certainly said what needed to be said in your column and I just deeply and sincerely thank you for writing it. And for continuing to be a voice of strength and clarity and that\'s just so necessary in our community. And not just the Black community, but overall. And you are a gem in Seattle and I just appreciate you.
Marcus Harrison Green: [00:33:15] Well, it takes one to know one, Crystal. It takes one to know one.\\xa0
Crystal Fincher: [00:33:20] With that - that is our time. I want to thank everyone for listening to Hacks and Wonks on KVRU 105.7 FM, this Friday, April 2nd, 2021. Our chief audio engineer at KVRU is Maurice Jones Jr. The producer\\xa0 of Hacks and Wonks is Lisl Stadler. And our wonderful co-host today was South Seattle Emerald publisher and Seattle Times columnist, Marcus Harrison Green. You can find Marcus on Twitter @mhgreen3000. You can find me on Twitter @finchfrii, spelled F I N C H F R I I. And now you can find Hock - you can find Hacks and Wonks on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts and just type "Hacks and Wonks" into the search bar. Be sure to subscribe, to get our Friday almost live show and our mid-week show sent directly to your podcast stream.\\xa0
Thanks for tuning in and we\'ll talk to you next time.
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