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Charles Fain Lehman is a fellow at the Manhattan Institute and contributing editor of City Journal. Gabriel Rossman is a sociologist at UCLA. They join Richard to debate the relationship between woke institutions, civil rights law, and corporate culture. Each has written a recent article on this topic: Richard’s “Woke Institutions is Just Civil Rights Law,” Charles’ “The Geneology of Woke Capital,” and Gabriel’s “Why Woke Organizations All Sound the Same.” They also discuss the history of affirmative action, successes and failures of the conservative legal movement, the connection between the civil rights policies of the Reagan administration and pop culture, status quo bias and negative polarization, and whether Americans still believe in meritocracy.

Click here to watch the video version of the podcast on YouTube.



Richard Hanania, “Woke Institutions is Just Civil Rights Law.” 

Charles Fain Lehman, “The Geneology of Woke Capital.” 

Gabriel Rossman, “Why Woke Organizations All Sound the Same.”

John W. Meyer and Brian Rowan, “Institutionalized Organizations: Formal Structure as Myth and Ceremony.”

Frank Dobbin and John R. Sutton, "The Strength of a Weak State: The Rights Revolution and the Rise of Human Resources Management Divisions.” 

Wikipedia, “Grutter v. Bolinger.” 

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