How do you get the right asbestos contractor?
In this episode Neil and Ian deep dive into how to ensure you select the right asbestos contractor. Covering everything from licenses, accreditations, memberships and financial stability.
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Transcript:
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Welcome to Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I\u2019m Ian Stone.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 I\u2019m Neil Munro.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 So today we\u2019re looking at contractor competence and how to check it.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Previously spoke about the [unclear \u2013 01:12] sort of failures and stuffs of [unclear \u2013 01:17] companies.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 So this is more removal contractors, asbestos remediation, asbestos removal works, all those type of contractors. They kind of fall into two categories, don\u2019t they, are they licensed or non-licensed?
Neil: \xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Licensed contractors they are given a license from the health and safety executive to work on and with licensable asbestos materials. You need license if you\u2019re going to potentially exceed the control limit so it\u2019s kind of the work on the higher risk materials, higher percentage of asbestos would you say?
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, great risk there, more hazardous stuff such as pump installation, spray coatings, the removal of asbestos insulating board, that type of activity.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 And when I say they\u2019re given a license. I don\u2019t actually mean given. It is not like you go, \u201cCan I have one?\u201d They go, \u201cYeah, yeah.\u201d It is a little bit more complex than that.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, they are externally verified by an inspector.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Health and safety executive inspector.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Has slightly changed very recently and they\u2019ve gone to an online system which has cause quite a few problems and delays and I know of quite a few contractors that have actually nearly gone over their license renewal date. So yeah I think there has been some problems with that so it\u2019s just something to be aware of if you are employing a licensed contractor at this moment in time and their license is about to expire. It may be worth contacting them just to make sure everything is in place because there has been some delays in actually issuing that license.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, and that\u2019s very good point actually because if you employ them to do a job halfway through the job their license expires. Well, if they don\u2019t get it renewed they can\u2019t trade, they can\u2019t work, so you are left with asbestos enclosure just sitting there on your site which kind of bugs everything.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, because there\u2019s lots of checks that they go through. Isn\u2019t it?
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah. They check also all your paperwork, all your procedures, following a license renewal, they do site visits as well and come and make sure that the supervisors, operatives are all working to your company\u2019s procedures because although the overarching kind of guidance is out there. Different companies do do different things. So need to make sure that the employees are doing what they should be doing.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, definitely.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 One thing to check on is for additional conditions on a license.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yup.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Now, there is always a standard to add conditions but sometimes some contractors are given additional conditions. Now, that could be because they\u2019ve had a visit or the renewal process they weren\u2019t happy with something.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yup. For all the inspector probably have got an experience in a certain area.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yes, so for instance, I know of a company that they were required to send in audits every three months. Send an independent audit to the HSE because obviously
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 They haven\u2019t had any maybe.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Hadn\u2019t have any or there were doubts or concerns or something like that so that was a conditional license. And the conditions, let\u2019s say, it is usually something is pretty much gone array or there is no confidence there so that\u2019s why you should check for any additional conditions.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 It is not very common for clients to actually read the licenses. Is it?
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 No, no.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 It is like okay you\u2019ve got a certificate but do you actually read what\u2019s actually written on the certificate.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 It is like a driving license. If you compare it to a driving license\u2026
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 It looks the same.\xa0\xa0
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 It looks the same. Everyone has got a driving license but actually is that a provisional, is it for motor bikes, is it for lorries, is it for towing? Exactly, there\u2019s all those different conditions on it so if you think of it along that similar manner that\u2019s why you should have a read through and check any conditions.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, yeah. So with a licensed contractor you\u2019ve got the HSE who are inspecting them their license granters. Is it [unclear \u2013 04:43] and types of works. So what about non-licensed contractors? There is no kind of policing of those contractors.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 There is no licensed to trade in the non-licensed world.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 The regulations are still in place and they are governed by that but there is no sort of external body checking.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 That you are okay to do that.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 That you are okay to do that and you\u2019re competent and etcetera.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 The owners has placed on the employer.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, exactly that. So what does non licensed contractors\u2026 what do they need to do? So what\u2019s that you can ask them have they go in place. Well, number one really is has that non-licensed contractor got the right risk assessments and method statements and plan of works, from the top works that you\u2019re trying to employ them for.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, and it\u2019s a big one really.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Can they actually identify the risk and have they got the procedures and work methods to actually do it correctly.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, that\u2019s correct definitely, because when you think about the different types of work in non-licensed world they could be working on vinyl tiles, gaskets, roofs and they\u2019ve all got their own elements of risks.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Control methods.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yes, the control methods and different removal techniques. So you wouldn\u2019t use the same removal technique for floor tiles as you would have for roof. So you need to make sure that they\u2019ve got that experience and the paperwork that backs it up.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Definitely. And that kind of leads on to training doesn\u2019t it?
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yes.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 So have they had the right training if they\u2019ve had asbestos [unclear \u2013 06:11] training that\u2019s not adequate for working with asbestos. So they would to have some form and evidence of this, non-licensed training.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 And it is the same for the licensed guys. The licensed contractors they need operative licensed supervisor training.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 And next, so once they\u2019ve got that training, have they got the right personal protective equipment which includes your respirators, covers. Have they got the right equipment for the job? That\u2019s kind of a standard practice to have all that stuff in place with the licensed arena. You know, they\u2019ve got all that stuff in place as a non-licensed contractor. And now they do regular checks on that so they check in the respirators and keep records of those.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Our guys face it.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Big one. So equipment, have they got the right equipment. So as a standard I would expect to see a HVAC vacuum cleaner. That\u2019s the standard contractor piece of equipment.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 That\u2019s DOP tested as well.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yes, and regularly done.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, every six months.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 It was done when you bought it but the vacuum cleaners are five years old.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 That\u2019s been tested too.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Which comes down to build a picture of this like not a lot of your average joe builders are going to have all this in place.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 No, and a lot of times you\u2019ll get a roofing company, other builder or a roofing company. They\u2019ve only got asbestos as part of their job. Yeah, we will do that. It\u2019s only non licensed but when you actually look into it, look at their methods, all the rest of it, they haven\u2019t got PPA, RPA, insurance, trainings, face fits. It\u2019s kind of, yeah you can do manual lifting, cutting of the sheets all the rest of it.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Taking it down and lumping it in.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, but it is not being done properly.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 So this lead on to where else so proper disposing of the asbestos materials themselves they have to have this waste license.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, waste carriers license for the vehicle.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Or the only other way around that is they are using an external company [unclear \u2013 08:05] Again, you need to be asking if they\u2019ve got the waste carriers license.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 And that is kind of the split between the licensed and non-licensed. Non-licensed contractors you\u2019ve got a lot more responsibility to check that all of these things are in place. Whereas if you use a licensed contractor and you do check their license and the other things like insurance and all those things as well. Because their license they have to have it all. So the licensed contractor really is kind of your safer option of employment competent contractor. \xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 \xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Just to add on to the license, the biggie, I\u2019m insured to do it.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 And that is massive. Insurance is a huge thing because any insurance company out there for builders, whatever it is they purposely exclude asbestos from the insurance. When asbestos goes wrong, it goes wrong in a big way and it cost a lot of money and that\u2019s why they exclude it, so again that is again just for covering your own ass, peace of mind, that\u2019s a biggie for you.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Just a few points to add on to so that\u2019s a non-licensed contractor and taking normal non-licensed activities if the works are going to be notifiable. This is just a few extra points that those contractors have to take into account. Don\u2019t they?
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, they need to put a notification in before work starts which is different to the licensed. The licensed notification period is 14 days whereas the non-licensed stuff is before work starts, so that could be 14 days. It could be the morning of the work while they are sitting in the van before they start the job. It is just a form they have to fill on the HSE website completely all the information about how they are planning to tackle the job, do the job, etcetera. It just needs to go in before the work starts.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yes, and you also have to keep health records after the medicals for these operatives or anyone into taking their non-licensed works and be kept on record for those employees. So again, it is kind of like is joe builder doing all of that? I would question that.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Definitely. But there are companies out there that are non-licensed. There are some roofing companies. They are fully aware of that and they fully comply with all of that.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, but it is just something peace of mind to make sure that the non-licensed company using has got all that in place.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Definitely.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 And where else can we look at to check competence?
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 So I\u2019ve look at any kind of accreditations. \xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, certifications, accreditation schemes, ISOs.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, and what this is kind of doing is this is building a picture of legitimacy of the company if they have prepared to jump through and we\u2019ll all know the hoops of ISO, and stuff like that. This will build a picture of if there are professional outfit, if they have got the 9001, 14001, anything like that.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 These are the schemes as well like [unclear \u2013 10:52]
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 ISSIPs so they kind of fall into the task and sub-contractor etcetera. They are all about assessing this sort of safety procedures and competency of not the asbestos element.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 The working element. Again if you\u2019re looking at a company that got these things it doesn\u2019t mean that they\u2019re [unclear \u2013 11:14] and you\u2019re off the hook. But it does kind of hold your hand and takes you down the path a little bit of going, \u201cYou know what these guys, they have got X, or, \xa0what it means is they\u2019ve got that badge because they\u2019ve got the right things in place in that scheme. Insurances we cover that. I mean on both sides if there is insurance in place that are big one to also check is the actual amount of cover is in place for your site or for the project. Again, because some asbestos maybe jobs are millions of pounds worth in size. And I don\u2019t know you might have a site where you are working next to a big reactor or something and if that goes bad that could cost millions to put right. So again, you need those insurances in place to make sure if it does go wrong there is that cover there for you.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, so we kind of talked about non-asbestos associations and accreditations, certifications. One to absolutely to look for is asbestos. Isn\u2019t it? Any memberships for that contractor because they are quite important especially on the contractor side because really they are the go to points for industry updates. They are kind of the voice of the industry and they are stirring the direction of policies because they are on various committees aren\u2019t they? I\u2019ve seen you got more experience in and around that arena. What else do they sit on?
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Our current ATAC and ACAD all put forward members of the governing council or the management committee to sit on different things so there\u2019s the asbestos licensing unit. How often the meetings on this. I think they used to be quarterly. I don\u2019t know if they are monthly now or what but that\u2019s why you sit down with the licensing unit.
Ian: \xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 And this is the HSE?
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 It\u2019s the HSE so you sit in directly with the HSE as the voice of the industry sharing concerns, issues, things that you feel could be made better, all those types of things. So you\u2019re actually talking to the heads of the licensing unit. There are all sorts, on the ATAC side again there is other committees that you\u2019re involved with and you sit on and again you represent your members, the member voices of the industry.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, and then the outcomes of those discussions are cascaded through to the members?
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yes.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 So if you are a member of those trade associations you\u2019re going to be kept up to date.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 You\u2019ve got a toe in of what\u2019s coming. That\u2019s what they used to do, that\u2019s what I used to do of you\u2019d go to these meetings, have discussions. And if it does look like things might be going one way or whatever then we would share that around the regional meetings with the members, discuss to them kind of relay implications and things like that. So if you are using a contractor that\u2019s a member of one of those. Like I said they\u2019ve got toe in of what\u2019s coming, whereas the contractor that isn\u2019t a member of one of them well how they are getting that information? Where are they pulling that information from?
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 It is definitely a lot harder to sort all that information individually yourself. It is something obviously to look for. Doesn\u2019t mean to say that there are going to be a better contractor but also as part of that membership they are externally audited. So again it is not you have got an independent member or authority going out, looking and understanding of those works.
Neil: \xa0\xa0\xa0 You\u2019ve got to meet the criteria. If you don\u2019t meet the criteria you don\u2019t become a member of ARCA. If you are a member of ARCA and whilst you\u2019re a member of ARCA if you don\u2019t meet the criteria of the audits, again, you are kicked out. Again, there are kind of standards in place that go again to give you more reassurance that your contractor is competent.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 And one thing to be obviously be aware of is if a contractor was ARCA just double check that they\u2019ve still got that because they do kick non-compliant, non-performing contractors out. So if they have not meet their criteria they will kick them out.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, they might the badge on their website, on their paperwork but they\u2019ve not taken it down so they are actually saying they are a member. That goes the same with all of it. Like HSE license you can go online on the HSE website and check the license number against the license holder to make sure it still valid and current, some of the insurance cover. Don\u2019t just take the fact that you\u2019ve got an email through or fax of an insurance they\u2019ve got. Pick up the phone and speak to the broker or speak to the policy holder and say, you know just want to check that these guys got have x. You know, definitely don\u2019t be afraid of asking for the broker\u2019s information and their contact details because that\u2019s what they are there for to be checked upon.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yup, like Neil just said, it is exactly the same with the ARCA membership. How could you get kicked out you\u2019ve been non-performing on audits, you\u2019ve done some things?
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Go against the rules of membership? And there is this whole heap of things that you can do but a biggie is failing audits because ARCA wants their members to be of a certain standard kind of so that what we\u2019ve talking of how do you check competence. Well, they want their members to be out there to a standard so then clients know that well if I use them they are of a standard so that\u2019s why they have teeth. They have teeth and they use them.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 And there are a lot of [unclear \u2013 16:06] on the removal side ask for that kind of because the reason you do memberships is because there is you know they have to meet a minimum standard.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yup. So what else can we look at kind of check competence? Well, this one is not necessarily competence but it is kind of competence from are they running a business properly so financial stability is what I\u2019m talking about. Credit check the business. You need to make sure that they have good cash flow, they\u2019ve got a good credit rating.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 To be one on the contractor side because, they have to fund a lot of equipments and labor. So when you are talking about asbestos removal works, there is a lot of polythene, there is a lot of equipments like vacuum cleaners, NPUs so Negative Pressure Units.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Timbers to make enclosures out of.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 In terms of decontamination units have to be hired, all the transformers, cables, lighting even in enclosures.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 There is scaffold.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Scaffolding if you got to do that, towers\u2026
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Coil machines.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, there is a lot to hire.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 If they don\u2019t own it they\u2019ve got to hire it. And if they\u2019ve got to hire it, they have a good credit rating because the last thing you want is use a company with a poor credit rating where it is halfway through the job that I don\u2019t know the hired company.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Okay as well you\u2019ve not paid any bill. I\u2019m taking\u2026
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Which I\u2019ve seen happen and you will just literally left with a site that is sealed up and it\u2019s half done and the contractor can\u2019t get any gear from anywhere else because they\u2019ve maxed their credit out everywhere\xa0 else. So will kind of shaft it which is not a good place to be. So financial, all I can say is it is not a competence thing per se but it is an overall looking at the business.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, definitely. What about personnel? Could we do any checks on that?
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 It is used to be CRB checks and now DBS checks. The checks that you send the details of a person of and essentially it is checking their records have they got a police record for anything.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 And it is particularly important in like schools, vulnerable sites, elderly or people disabilities or anything like that.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, need to make sure the staff are closure and they can go and do what they say they are going to do without anything untoward happening. I know of a contractor a few years ago filled out the paperworks said, \u201cNo. I\u2019m clean as a weasel. I haven\u2019t got anything.\u201d It was for a police station, the job, and just before work starts, the CRB it was back then came back and lo and behold one of the contractors that filled in the forms said, \u201cNo, no, I\u2019m squeaky. I\u2019ve got nothing.\u201d It came back that he had thing on his record for common assault. However, that transpired that it was common assault on a police officer. It even transpired that it was a common assault on a police officer at that police station that he was going to work up. Again, people do\xa0 [unclear \u2013 18:53] and again that\u2019s like another check that you make sure that you\u2019ve got the right people for the right job.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yeah, definitely. And kind of lastly, what else can you check these references isn\u2019t it can you get to speak to or get information from people who have actually used a contractor before and what have they done in a similar fashion. In a similar fashion, how did they perform? Was it all good?
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 And that\u2019s the thing you want to check that because like what I was saying earlier different jobs have different removal methods. So a contractor might have loads of experience in removing asbestos insulating board however when you look at something that\u2019s a bit more complicated in such as boiler room using injection machines or using Quill blasting machines.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 It is a different [unclear \u2013 19:35]
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 It really is and it is a lot more complicated, a lot more in depth, and again it is not just does the company have that record but do the site guys have competence in those works as well.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Particularly the supervisor.
Neil: \xa0\xa0\xa0 Yup.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Operatives ideally but the supervisors is the main ones doing the shift on site.\xa0\xa0
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 I always ask for reference. All I can say ask for the staff that\u2019s similar to the works that you\u2019re going to have done. Also, can you speak to them? Can you give us the information so I can actually pick up the phone number because I found time and again you have a and lo and behold you always put forward good references. You\u2019d be dumb if you put forward a bad reference or a bad referee. But even when you put forward the good ones sometime by order of that conversation you kind of find stuff out and I know it could be\u2026
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 It was good but\u2026
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 And it could be something as simple as the work were all done fine, everything was great, but their lads on site really scruffy and they sore a bit.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Which is not ideal if you are in a school.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 No. I don\u2019t know the works are all done and completely. Everything was brilliant however they turn up late every day. Anything like that and it kind of again it\u2019s all about giving yourself a level of competence about that.\xa0
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Definitely.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 Now, we kind of put a form together that you can use and download. It ticks off a lot of these things, use it whether you do licensed, non-licensed stuff, whether you worked with a contractor before, whether it is a new one coming on board, every so often probably pan out again just due diligence.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 If there is a requirement if you are employing somebody that you should be checking their competence and this form is just a little freebie for you to use and it would be a good step forward for you taking that box of you\u2019ve done your assessment on their competency.
Neil:\xa0\xa0\xa0 We are going to paste this into Asbestos Knowledge Empire Facebook community. It is a private closed community. You can join the community by going on to Facebook. There is a search bar at the top literally pop in there Asbestos Knowledge Empire, click to join.
\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 You\u2019ll see our faces, our beautiful faces. And basically in there in the past information we paste it in there so you can use that. I hope you found that useful.
Ian:\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0\xa0 Yup, and remember, asbestos first not last.\xa0