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Michael Shellenberger\xa0is the best-selling author of\xa0\u201cApocalypse Never\u201d\xa0and\xa0\u201cSan Fransicko." He is a journalist and founder of\xa0Public, a Substack publication. Michael is a Time Magazine Hero of the Environment and Green Book Award winner. He is also founder and president of\xa0Environmental Progress, a research organization that incubates ideas, leaders, and movementsmichaelshellenberger.substack.com\nLearn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices