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Will Larson\xa0is Chief Technology Officer at Carta. Prior to joining Carta, he was the CTO at Calm and held engineering leadership roles at Stripe, Uber, and Digg. He is the author of two foundational engineering career books,\xa0An Elegant Puzzle\xa0and\xa0Staff Engineer,\xa0and\xa0The Engineering Executive\u2019s Primer,\xa0which will be released in February. In our conversation, we discuss:

\u2022 Systems thinking: what it is and how to apply it

\u2022 Advice for product managers on fostering productive relationships with engineering managers

\u2022 Why companies should treat engineers like adults

\u2022 How to best measure developer productivity

\u2022 Writing and its impact on his career

\u2022 How to balance writing with a demanding job

\u2022 How to develop your company values

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-engineering-mindset-will-larson

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Where to find Will Larson:

\u2022 X: https://twitter.com/Lethain

\u2022 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/will-larson-a44b543/

\u2022 Website: https://lethain.com/

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Where to find Lenny:

\u2022 Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

\u2022 X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

\u2022 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Will\u2019s background

(04:12) Changes in the field of engineering

(06:27) We need to stop treating engineers like children

(08:32) Systems thinking

(13:23) Implementing systems thinking in hiring

(16:32) Engineering strategy

(20:21) Examples of engineering strategies

(25:08) How to get good at strategy

(26:48) The importance of writing about things that excite you

(32:40) The biggest risk to content creation is quitting too soon

(35:24) How to make time for writing

(37:41) Tips for aspiring writers

(41:18) Building productive relationships between product managers and engineers

(43:45) Giving the same performance rating to EMs and PMs

(48:24) Measuring engineering productivity

(55:53) Defining company values

(01:02:10) Failure corner: the Digg rewrite

(01:11:05) Will\u2019s upcoming book, The Engineering Executive\u2019s Primer

(01:12:04) Lightning round

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Referenced:

\u2022 The end of the \u201cfree money\u201d era: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/apr/11/techscape-zirp-tech-boom

\u2022 Work on what matters: https://lethain.com/work-on-what-matters/

\u2022 Sheryl Sandberg to Harvard Biz Grads: \u201cFind a Rocket Ship\u201d: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/05/24/sheryl-sandberg-to-harvard-biz-grads-find-a-rocket-ship/?sh=708c9a93b37a

\u2022 What Is Systems Thinking?: https://www.snhu.edu/about-us/newsroom/business/what-is-systems-thinking

\u2022 Introduction to systems thinking: https://lethain.com/systems-thinking/

\u2022 Thinking in Systems: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557

\u2022 Silent Spring: https://www.amazon.com/Silent-Spring-Rachel-Carson/dp/0618249060

\u2022 Writing an engineering strategy: https://lethain.com/eng-strategies/

\u2022 Carta: https://carta.com/

\u2022 Eric Vogl on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericvogl/

\u2022 Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The difference and why it matters: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-Bad-difference-matters/dp/1781256179

\u2022 The Crux: How Leaders Become Strategists: https://www.amazon.com/Crux-How-Leaders-Become-Strategists/dp/1541701240/

\u2022 How Big Things Get Done: The Surprising Factors That Determine the Fate of Every Project, from Home Renovations to Space Exploration and Everything in Between: https://www.amazon.com/How-Big-Things-Get-Done/dp/0593239512/

\u2022 Technology Strategy Patterns: Architecture as Strategy: https://www.amazon.com/Technology-Strategy-Patterns-Architecture/dp/1492040878/

\u2022 The Value Flywheel Effect: Power the Future and Accelerate Your Organization to the Modern Cloud: https://www.amazon.com/Value-Flywheel-Effect-Accelerate-Organization/dp/1950508579

\u2022 The Phoenix Project: A Novel about IT, DevOps, and Helping Your Business Win: https://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Project-DevOps-Helping-Business/dp/1942788290

\u2022 The Engineering Executive\u2019s Primer: Impactful Technical Leadership: https://www.amazon.com/Engineering-Executives-Primer-Impactful-Leadership/dp/1098149483

\u2022 An Elegant Puzzle: Systems of Engineering Management: https://press.stripe.com/an-elegant-puzzle

\u2022 Staff Engineer: Leadership beyond the management track: https://www.amazon.com/Staff-Engineer-Leadership-beyond-management-ebook/dp/B08RMSHYGG

\u2022 Gergely Orosz\u2019s newsletter: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/author/gergely/

\u2022 Leaving big tech to build the #1 technology newsletter | Gergely Orosz (The Pragmatic Engineer): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/videos/leaving-big-tech-to-build-the-1-technology-newsletter-gergely-orosz-the-pragmatic-engineer/

\u2022 The art of product management | Shreyas Doshi (Stripe, Twitter, Google, Yahoo): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/videos/the-art-of-product-management-shreyas-doshi-stripe-twitter-google-yahoo/

\u2022 Henry Ward on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heward/

\u2022 Vrushali Paunikar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vrushali-paunikar/

\u2022 Accelerate: The Science of Lean Software and DevOps: Building and Scaling High Performing Technology Organizations: https://www.amazon.com/Accelerate-Software-Performing-Technology-Organizations/dp/1942788339

\u2022 How to measure and improve developer productivity | Nicole Forsgren (Microsoft Research, GitHub, Google): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-measure-and-improve-developer-productivity-nicole-forsgren-microsoft-research-github-goo/

\u2022 DORA: https://dora.dev/

\u2022 Setting engineering org values: https://lethain.com/setting-engineering-org-values/

\u2022 Digg: https://digg.com/

\u2022 Kevin Rose on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinrose/

\u2022 Digg\u2019s v4 launch: an optimism born of necessity: https://lethain.com/digg-v4/

\u2022 Dash Gopinath on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dashgopinath/

\u2022 Rich Schumacher on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richschumacher/

\u2022 The ALL NEW Don\u2019t Think of an Elephant!: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate: https://www.amazon.com/ALL-NEW-Dont-Think-Elephant-ebook/dp/B00NP9LHFA

\u2022 Top Chef on Peacock: https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/top-chef/5172289448907967112

\u2022 Hard to work with: https://lethain.com/hard-to-work-with/

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.